[AbiDrew85]

Abi,

First off let me explain that I am not directly criticising your decision to experiment with self-medicated hormones. My concern is for others, like me, driven here through GD, who, seeing casual discussions of self-medication, will assume it is safe enough and go that route directly. There are two good reasons to discourage this: first is safety, and the other is that using PM (which is safer), may be sufficient to alleviate the GD symptoms.

Uh. I'm here through GD too.

What you are saying is that the drug is bioidentical to that occuring in a female body. It will still have been synthesised though, and it is regulated, because it is potentially dangerous.

Natural to me means, I suppose, that in addition to being something you can harvest, that it is readily available, over the counter, and not dangerous.

Male bodies too... And my definition of natural does not involve being OTC or readily available and I'm not naive enough to believe anything is "not dangerous".

Semantics... a drug is not a food and it is used for medical treatment (look up drugs and pharmaceuticals in wiki). As per the "D" in FDA...

Yes. Legal definition it is a drug. But it's not really a "drug". By my somewhat twisted personal definition of a drug, every single herb we're taking we're taking for their drugs. Legal definition is really even more twisted though. At least my definition is clear-cut if hard to explain. By legal definition saw palmetto is an herb even in extracts, but cannabis is a drug even as a whole plant.

But that increased risk is exactly why it is regulated by the FDA and requires blood work, check-ups, possible orchiectomies, all that sort of thing.

What about these side-effects?
Side Effects

Yes, they may well cause those effects with a small percentage of the population, but that's exactly why a doctor is required to prescribe.

What I find interesting is that every single one of those "side effects" are actually symptoms of mild to severe estrogen dominance with the exception of a few symptoms of DVT.

And there's been no equivalent study done on phyto's, so for all we know we could be doing the same kind of thing there.

Actually there have been studies on PM - look up Google Scholar. It's an incredibly safe food that contains a bioidentical from of Estriol, the weakest and safest Estrogen - actually seems to protect women from the estroges that cause breast cancer. Look it up.

Actually... It's been compared to both estriol and estradiol and looks chemically like something somewhere between, like if somehow there was a fourth estrogen between E2 and E3, that's what miroestrol would be. Studies I'm talking about are specifically as regards to any increased risk of DVT. There's been NO research as to whether ANY phyto's increase the risk of DVT as is presently assumed that all steroidal estrogens do (which I'm not convinced they actually do, and more recent research is beginning to indicate I may be right and Premarin has done a mighty fine job of convincing everyone that Premarin isn't "that bad" because "all estrogen is the same anyways".

To my mind there is a reason why this forum was founded and that is to try to grow or enhance breasts without the use of dangerous drugs (dangerous because unsupervised, if you like).

I'm sorry if my disagreement upsets you, but I find this experimenting with regulated drugs to be very risky behaviour; there is a yahoo group that specialises in risk taking: groups.yahoo.com/group/TsDoItYourselfHormones

Obviously, this is only my opinion, but I explained in the opening why I made an issue of it.

Bryony

PS Chrishoney, I'd rather be dramatic and risk averse than hospitalised. Actual risks, by their very nature are hard to quantify, and often wrongly stated on the basis of clinical studies that can be and sometimes are skewed. That's why drugs get withdrawn. I worked for a pharmaceutical for 20 years and saw several drugs get withdrawn due to unforeseen adverse effects.

And in my opinion we're all specializing in risk taking. It's just a question of which risks are we willing to take, and why.

There's been discussion lately about the drugs (both legal and my own definition in this case) for anti-t... THAT is something *I* disagree with. Yet IIRC, you didn't complain at all about them discussing those.

[SilviaTX]

Gurls,

I am so amazed at the sophistication of the debate! To bring the topic to a CLOSE, let me remind you of the two words that I quoted in my posting:

INFORMED CONSENT

You, my special friends have helped me become informed and I as a mature gurl, I have consented to accept the risks to reach for the benefits that I desperately NEED.

Kisses and hugs to everyone!

Sylvia

[bryony]

And my definition of natural does not involve being OTC or readily available and I'm not naive enough to believe anything is "not dangerous".

Yes, well I suppose potatoes are dangerous if you eat enough of them, and certainly carrots are too. That's about the level of risk you have with PM compared to unsupervised DIY hormones. The degrees of freedom differ hugely.

There's been discussion lately about the drugs (both legal and my own definition in this case) for anti-t... THAT is something *I* disagree with. Yet IIRC, you didn't complain at all about them discussing those.

I was remiss. I'm concerned about those too. They don't belong in a natural breast enlargement discussion either. I'm glad that you appear to agree! A shame you don't feel the same way about DIY Pharm.

Maybe Eve would be willing to create a separate sub-forum for DIY Hormone/Anti-hormone experimenters.

In deference to the OP I'll shut up now... it never seems to do any good anyway.

B.

[SarahSchilling]

Hi Sarah,

I'm going to get bloodwork done before starting on it, if that makes you feel any better.

It would, if I knew you were going to tell the doctor what you were going to do.... are you?

Bryony the mother hen, it seems.

LOL mother hen....

Actually, oddly enough...I just scheduled an appointment with a therapist with the stated goal of getting a note to be prescribed hormones. So my doctor will be fully aware of what I am taking, as he will prescribe it.

I still may order the hormones online simply for cost with the way things are in the states. We will see which is cheaper. Guessing it'll be cheaper to order online since I don't have health insurance.

I genuinely thank you for your concern, though. (not sarcasm)

On a side note, I only smoked 5 cigarettes today!!! Usually I smoke 30....sorry just proud of myself. I'm going to kick these fuckers to the curb for good!

[AbiDrew85]

On a side note, I only smoked 5 cigarettes today!!! Usually I smoke 30....sorry just proud of myself. I'm going to kick these fuckers to the curb for good!

Damn girl! You were a right chimney! Good going on getting it down that low! And keep it going! Don't relax into a NEW smoking habit!

That'll be one of the first things a good endo is going to ask you about, you know. Because once you add smoking, high levels of estradiol in the blood plus smoking DOES raise your risk of DVT AND a serious stroke from it tremendously! This is a KNOWN risk of smoking among ALL WOMEN, as well as those who use hormone supplementation.

[flamesabers]

On a side note, I only smoked 5 cigarettes today!!! Usually I smoke 30....sorry just proud of myself. I'm going to kick these fuckers to the curb for good!

Good for you!

I think that's reason enough to be proud of yourself.

[SarahSchilling]

Damn girl! You were a right chimney! Good going on getting it down that low! And keep it going! Don't relax into a NEW smoking habit!

That'll be one of the first things a good endo is going to ask you about, you know. Because once you add smoking, high levels of estradiol in the blood plus smoking DOES raise your risk of DVT AND a serious stroke from it tremendously! This is a KNOWN risk of smoking among ALL WOMEN, as well as those who use hormone supplementation.

Yeah I know. It's stupid. I get absolutely nothing out of killing myself, even not taking into account the increased risk of health problems while taking estrogens.

It's just a remnant of my younger days when I was desperately trying to fit in. Quite embarrassing tbh.

I didn't smoke before my morning english class today, and towards the end of the class i wanted to scream at these people to shut the hell up so we could get out of there. It seemed like we were being held an extra half hour, but when I got outside I looked at the time, and we'd gotten out 40 mins early lmao

God only knows what kind of ultra addictive additives are in them. Hopefully my therapist can help with my addiction issues as well.

Good for you!

I think that's reason enough to be proud of yourself.

Thanks. I can't wait until I don't constantly have the urge to light one up lol....its hell. A hell of my own making, but hell nonetheless.

[chrishoney]

PS Chrishoney, I'd rather be dramatic and risk averse than hospitalised. Actual risks, by their very nature are hard to quantify, and often wrongly stated on the basis of clinical studies that can be and sometimes are skewed. That's why drugs get withdrawn. I worked for a pharmaceutical for 20 years and saw several drugs get withdrawn due to unforeseen adverse effects.

I understand, I have to be very cognizant of possible drug reactions and side effects on a daily basis in my 'day job.' However, overstating the case for caution (which is WAY warranted as regards the topic of this thread) often has the opposite effect--folks become inured to the real importance of the message by too much exposure to hyperbole. I would rather deal with facts and make risk assessments based on those, than on emotional arguments. Just my preference I guess.

[chrishoney]

And my definition of natural does not involve being OTC or readily available and I'm not naive enough to believe anything is "not dangerous".

Yes, well I suppose potatoes are dangerous if you eat enough of them, and certainly carrots are too. That's about the level of risk you have with PM compared to unsupervised DIY hormones. The degrees of freedom differ hugely.

There's been discussion lately about the drugs (both legal and my own definition in this case) for anti-t... THAT is something *I* disagree with. Yet IIRC, you didn't complain at all about them discussing those.

I was remiss. I'm concerned about those too. They don't belong in a natural breast enlargement discussion either. I'm glad that you appear to agree! A shame you don't feel the same way about DIY Pharm.

Maybe Eve would be willing to create a separate sub-forum for DIY Hormone/Anti-hormone experimenters.

In deference to the OP I'll shut up now... it never seems to do any good anyway.

B.

An interesting bit of trivia: when potatoes are exposed to sunlight for too long, the skin starts to turn green. The green part has a natural toxin called solanine (here's a snopes.com article on it: http://www.snopes.com/food/ingredient/potato.asp). So, yes indeed, potatoes can be dangerous!!!

[bryony]

An interesting bit of trivia: when potatoes are exposed to sunlight for too long, the skin starts to turn green. The green part has a natural toxin called solanine (here's a snopes.com article on it: http://www.snopes.com/food/ingredient/potato.asp). So, yes indeed, potatoes can be dangerous!!!

Touché

B.