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Kidney pain

#21

(17-03-2013, 11:15 PM)doodlebug2055 Wrote:  Is it generally considered less effective than oral or just not discussed here by coincidence?

I think the topical form of pm is generally considered less effective than the oral forms. Byrony posted a link to an article a while back about how pm is more effective when it's processed by the liver, instead of being absorbed by the skin. Some members have used the topical form, but I don't recall anyone saying it's as effective as the oral forms. And if I'm not mistaken, when using the topical form Ainterol recommends avoiding rubbing any of the cream on your nipples/areola. Otherwise, you may experience a burning sensation in that area. Also, using the topical form would most likely eliminate any chance of brain rewiring, as the topical form isn't being internally absorbed like the oral forms are.

If you really want, I say give the topical form a trial run and see what happens. It may work out for you.
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#22

(17-03-2013, 11:15 PM)doodlebug2055 Wrote:  What about topical PM cream? I don't hear anyone discussing it at all but it seems like, as long as there is adsorption through the skin, it would be a good option to get the estrogen exactly where you want it. Obviously though, the skin's primary purpose and the one it's particularly good at is preventing things (germs, viruses etc) from entering the body. Is it generally considered less effective than oral or just not discussed here by coincidence?
Obviously, a topically-applied cream will get into the bloodstream. Progesterone cream, testosterone cream, estrogen cream, nitroglycerine patches, nicotine patches, etc. all prove this. The problem, as I understand it, is that PM needs to pass through the liver to become what it is we want it to become so it does what we want it to do. Apparently, this does not happen when applied to the skin. That said, other than greed, there must be some reason Ainterol recommends using the cream in addition to pills or powder to improve results.

If you continue to have problems, you might need to start with an even lower dose such as opening the capsules, pouring out half into a little yogurt or something, then taking the other half later. Alternatively, you could switch to a different brand that has a lower dose and use it until your body tolerates raising that lower dose to a level on par with the product you already have, then switch back to what you're using now. At the moment, I seem to be stuck at 500 mg twice a day because my digestive tract is reacting badly to more. My system has done this with various prescription meds in the past. I know to be patient and resist the urge to rush things. A very hard lesson.
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#23

I've recently been using a very small amount of pure PM liquid extract directly on my nipple and massaging it into my nipple and areola of my right breast, which is slightly less developed than the left, in hopes of helping it catch up.

I cannot say how effective it is or isn't, but I can say there's no ill effect from it.
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#24

(18-03-2013, 01:39 AM)AbiDrew85 Wrote:  I've recently been using a very small amount of pure PM liquid extract directly on my nipple and massaging it into my nipple and areola of my right breast, which is slightly less developed than the left, in hopes of helping it catch up.

I cannot say how effective it is or isn't, but I can say there's no ill effect from it.

Out of curiosity, did you make this extract yourself or did you buy it somewhere?

I'm interested in hearing your results with this. Despite the many factors influencing breast growth, this sounds like a good way to test how effective a topical solution is with stimulating breast growth.
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#25

(18-03-2013, 04:08 AM)flamesabers Wrote:  Out of curiosity, did you make this extract yourself or did you buy it somewhere?

I'm interested in hearing your results with this. Despite the many factors influencing breast growth, this sounds like a good way to test how effective a topical solution is with stimulating breast growth.

It's Ainterol's right now, though I'm almost out of that and will be switching to St.Herbs soon.
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#26

...Pondering the statement about the liver playing a critical role in the conversion of estrogen. I did a search to see exactly where a liver sits in a body. It's located mostly on the RIGHT side and just below the shoulder blade. Hummm, that more accurately describes where my pain was. I always thought it was a little strange that the pain was concentrated on my right side and if PM was affecting my kidneys, why only my right kidney? Perhaps it was my liver instead.

Anyway, I found this article that puts the process in layman's terms. I Thought it might be useful for instruction or banter.

Articles - Estrogen Metabolism

Hormones are chemicals, which act as messengers within our bodies. They can be slow or fast acting. Hormones are generated at all times and different bodily tissues are responsible for producing different hormones. Their purpose is to maintain certain equilibrium within its host and make the body function optimally.

Estrogen is a hormone.It is produced by man and women. In man, if released in high enough quantities it will produce secondary female sex characteristics such as breast development, female voice, absence of facial hair and many more. In females, it is produced in large amounts and it is responsible for female characteristics. The focus of this paper will be to look at the different types of estrogens, their metabolism and some dietary and nutritional factors that influence estrogen’s biochemical pathways.

There are three forms of estrogen circulating in our bloodstream: estradiol, estrone and estriol. The normal ratios of these three types of estrogens ideally should be: 10 - 20% : 10 – 20% : 60 – 80% respectively 1. It is common however, to have this ratio disrupted though number of ways, such as: synthetic estrogens, estrogens in animal products, xenoestrogens (estrogens which are found in some environmental chemicals), phytoestrogens (estrogens found in plants) and production of estrogens in our body. In women of reproductive age, the primary source of circulating estrogens is the ovaries. In postmenopausal women and pre-puberty girls the main source of estrogens comes from extraglandular sites 3. Once estrogen is produced and released into the bloodstream, it reaches its target tissues and the liver. The estrogen that accounts for most of the tissue stimulation is called estradiol. Estrone is a little bit less potent with estriol being the weakest 1. In general, the most biologically active estrogens are the unconjugated ones and as mentioned above estradiol type would be the most potent one. The level of estrogenic activity becomes important when there is a pathology present or if there is a genetic or environmental susceptibility towards certain hormone receptive diseases.

Metabolism of estrogens occurs in several areas of the body, however the main ones are liver and gastrointestinal tissues. More than 50% of the metabolism and conjugation of estrogens takes place in the liver, therefore targeting the liver becomes central when it comes to affecting the circulating estrogen ratio. Cholesterol is a molecule, which serves as a backbone for formation of a lot of hormones including estrogen. There are a lot of biochemical pathways, which lead to the production of estrogen. Some of these pathways are shown in appendix 1. The major pathway of estrogen metabolism is from estradiol to estrone 6. In turn, estrone (which can either come from androstenedione or estradiol) is metabolized further to 2-hydroxyestrone or 16alfa-hydroxyestrone. Finally, 16alfa-hydroxyestrone can be further metabolized into estriol (the weakest form of estrogen) 1 or to the catechol estrogens, which are then conjugated primarily as glucuronides, sulfates and thioether5,7. The conjugated forms of estrogen are water-soluble as well as they also do not bind to transport proteins. Therefore the conjugated forms of estrogen are readily excreted via bile, feces and urine4. The glucuronide conjugates are excreted in the urine more rapidly than are the sulfates. Because the estrogen sulfates are excreted from the body at a slower rate, they have a higher chance to be hydrolyzed in tissues and act as a source of biologically active estrogens8.

Another way estrogen metabolism is accomplished is by the gastrointestinal system. Approximately 50% of the estrogen conjugates, which enter or are formed in the liver, are excreted in the bile, pass into the intestine, and are hydrolyzed by intestinal bacteria9. Following this hydrolyzation reaction in the intestines the estrogens either are excreted in the feces or they are reabsorbed into the portal circulation. After the reabsorbtion takes place, the hydrolyzed estrogens are metabolized by the liver again and released into the bile or they stay in the circulation and stimulate their target tissues2. The hydrolysis of estrogen-glucoronides is accomplished by the bacterial enzyme called beta-glucuronidase. This enzyme is carried in some unfavorable intestinal bacteria. However, certain nutritional supplements, diet and antibiotics can influence the level of activity of this enzyme.

One study done by Adlercreutz and colleagues, examined the effects of supplementation of oral ampicillin to pregnant women resulted in a 34% decrease in urinary estrogen excretion and a 6-fold increase in the excretion of fecal estrogen. The concentration of conjugated forms of estrogen in the feces actually increased 60-fold10,11.

Another study done by Shultz looked at plasma estrogen levels in vegetarian and nonvegetarian women. Fourteen premenopausal vegetarian women were compared with 9 premenopausal omnivores. The vegetarian women consumed significantly less fat, especially saturated fat, than the omnivores. Plasma levels of estrone and estradiol were found to be lower in the vegetarians12. Finally, study presented by Sherwood and colleagues, showed that vegetarians excreted threefold more estrogen in their feces, had lower urinary excretion, and had 15-20% lower plasma estrogen levels. The above studies show a positive correlation between high plasma levels of estrogen and consumption of fat, as well as, a negative correlation with consumption of high fiber diet. The above results indicate that diet can alter the route of excretion of estrogen by influencing the enterohepatic circulation and that this, in turn, influences plasma estrogen levels.

In summary, the breakdown and excretion of estrogens is an extremely complicated process and a wide range of factors can influence it. Research seems to suggest that certain components of diet either increase or decrease the metabolism as well as excretion of estrogens. Dietary factors can also shift the production of estrogen from the more potent to less potent ones.

1. Sat Dharam Kaur. A call to women. Kingston ON: Kingston Quarry Press Inc.; 2000. p. 58-66.
2. Sherwood L. Gorbach, Barry R. Goldin. Diet and the excretion and enterohepatic cycling of estrogens. Preventive Med 1987;16:525-31.
2. Longcope C, Kato T, Horton R. Conversion of blood androgens to estrogens in normal adult men and women. J Clin Invest 1969;48:2191-201.
3. Robert K. Murray et at. Harper’s biochemistry. Connecticut: Lange Medical Publications; 1993. p.547-50.
4. Eriksson H, Gustafsson JA. Excretion of steroid hormones in adults. Eur J Biochem 1971;18:146-50.
5. Fishman J, Bradlow HL, Gallagher TF. Oxidative metabolism of estradiol. J Biol Chem 1960;235:3104-07.
6. Mustapha A. Beleh et al. Estrogen metabolism in microsomal, cell and tissue preparations of kidney and liver from Syrian hamsters. J Steroid Biochem Molec Biol 1995;52(5):479-89.
7. Tseng L, Stolee A, Gurpide E. Quantitative studies on the uptake and metabolism of estrogens and progesterone by human endometrium. Endocrinology 1972;90:390-404.
8. Sandberg AA, Slaunwhite WR. Jr. studies on phenolic steroids in human subjects. J Clin Invest 1957;36:1266-78.
9. Adlercreutz H et al. Intestinal metabolism of estrogens. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1976;43:497-505.
10. Adlercerutz H et al. Effect of ampicillin administration of the excretion of twelve estrogens in pregnancy urine. Acta Endocrinol 1975;80:551-7.
11. Shultz TD,Ledlem JE. Nutrient intake and hormonal status of premenopausal vegetarian Seventh-Day Adventists and premenopausal nonvegetarians. Nutr Cancer 1983;4:247-59.

Margaret Balajewicz B.Sc, Naturopathic Doctor
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#27

(18-03-2013, 06:48 AM)doodlebug2055 Wrote:  I did a search to see exactly where a liver sits in a body. It's located mostly on the RIGHT side and just below the shoulder blade.

You seem to keep your liver in a funny place!
It is certainly a lop-sided organ with the bulk of it offset to the RHS but it isn't just below your shoulder blade, its below your ribs!
The following quote is from the British Liver Trust...

"If you place your right hand over the area under the ribs on the right side of your body it will just about cover the area of your liver. "
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#28

    I suppose I wasn't too clear. I meant that the top of ones liver starts at the bottom of the shoulder blade. Perhaps this will help...
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#29

Just a quick note. The literature that came with my Ainterol PM cream said to avoid the nipples as it could possibly cause "unwanted, involuntary, possibly embarassing erection of the nipples.(paraphrased). I will only say that they are indeed correct in issueing that little warning.
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#30

Doodlebug,

Pain in the area of the liver, particularly towards the right hand end just under the ribs, can be from the gall bladder. In some people at least, particularly those with quiescent gall stones that they may not even know about, it can sometimes be caused by sudden changes in estrogen levels. This is supposedly why gall bladder problems are more common in women than men. For my own experience FWIW, see

http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=11697

particularly post #9 onwards. The link in post #9 is no longer valid: if I can track the article down again I'll post the link later.
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