[AbiDrew85]

The King vs. Leder studies comparison suggests to me that maybe we are missing a bet by not trying taking our entire shot of PM at once daily, first thing in the morning. Does anyone else think that might be rational? Anyone tried that approach with a large dose (>1g) long enough (more than a week) to tell if it makes a difference?

I believe Abi uses that approach, and she has some scientific data to back it up.

Misty

Yes. I've been following this approach for pretty much the entire time I've been using it except only the first month and a half. It definitely seems to me as though I've been getting better results.

As for the science... Pretty much the same sort of stuff as just linked, different sources.

As for the progesterone thing. I've said over and over and over that I don't and probably never will have proof of it. That it's my THEORY. In fact when I first introduced the concept I clearly described it as being my pet theory. It's a theory that I'm personally putting into practice on my self, and one I push a fair bit because I believe in it so much, but it is only a theory. I can't help what others do with my theories.

Most of what we're doing falls under "only a theory" anyways. The things I do have solid proof of I will say I have solid proof of and point to said solid proof. Anything else I will work to explain the theory and why I've come to the conclusions I have. It's going to involve lots of "surmise and guesswork" with "further speculation, deduction, and argument support". That's how the scientific method works. The proof will be in the results.

The only difference is that I'm working on a very small scale: me as my personal guinea pig. Scientists do double and triple blind studies with lots of volunteers. Good luck even FINDING enough volunteers to make such a study out of most if any of my theories. People are generally "happy enough" with things "as they are".

We also have to take into consideration, however, our respective goals. Mine is complete feminization, or as close to as I can possibly get. And it's for THOSE purposes that MOST of my pet theory is proposed.

However, I do believe also that MANY of you could benefit from some measure of progesterone supplementation. What's arguable is how much, and whether to cycle at all, and if so, whether to attempt to simulate a female cycle or not.

For a full TS like me, the answers (In my highly researched opinion) are to go for full femme. Try to simulate female hormone levels as closely as possible, though with a bit of UMPH from taking multiple estrogen sources and raise my progesterone slightly higher and going for really high peaks and really deep valleys.

For those trying to maintain some measure of maleness? Perhaps you should take it a bit easier, maybe even try to avoid decreasing T at all, since that's not REALLY necessary for breast growth, only for other curves and a more female body mass. You might not ever fully develop, but are you really that interested in fully developed breasts if you are trying to maintain some measure of maleness? Somehow I doubt it.

You'll notice I tend to avoid commenting unless requested to when it comes to guys who want to stay guys but grow just a bit of booby. It's not where my priorities lie, so I really don't know as much about it. My primary expertise is in anti-androgens, which I'm not even sure those trying to stay male should be messing with.

My second biggest expertise is in trying to simulate a female cycle. Again. Not something probably all too applicable to most of the guys here.

Anyways. IIFF you think you MIGHT get some benefit from using progesterone... by all means... try it. Let us ALL know how it works out for you. I think it works great for me. I feel miserable if I forget it at all. And no, I really don't think it's placebo. It's because I feel miserable that I start wondering if I remembered it, and eventually realize that no, I forgot to take it last night or this morning or whenever I was supposed to take it last during the two weeks I take it.

[bryony]

Ok, well, that was all kind of useful. I'm still suffering a bit from Patti's bafflement syndrome, so maybe it would be useful to ask what everyone thinks they mean in terms of symptoms when they talk about Estrogen Dominance?

I have an open mind, and maybe this is just a term that has been abstracted from GG problems, and there really is a problem specific to GMs who have more estrogen than they should?

What symptoms are we talking about here? I've seen at least 3 contributors talking about concern over E.D. (sorry about that couldn't resist). It would be nice to see what they all think it entails. If I recognise anything it would be worth knowing - I might even have to get some PG cream myself.

B.

[AbiDrew85]

Ok, well, that was all kind of useful. I'm still suffering a bit from Patti's bafflement syndrome, so maybe it would be useful to ask what everyone thinks they mean in terms of symptoms when they talk about Estrogen Dominance?

I have an open mind, and maybe this is just a term that has been abstracted from GG problems, and there really is a problem specific to GMs who have more estrogen than they should?

What symptoms are we talking about here? I've seen at least 3 contributors talking about concern over E.D. (sorry about that couldn't resist). It would be nice to see what they all think it entails. If I recognise anything it would be worth knowing - I might even have to get some PG cream myself.

B.

For me, I look mostly for extreme tiredness AND insomnia together at the same time as one of my primary symptoms. Another major symptom for me is a certain kind of moodiness and mind fog... I've experienced pretty much anything on the emotional/mental aspects of what GG's are told to look out for, though. And the few physical aspects that can apply. I really can't experience MOST of the physical aspects, because I don't have the right equipment.

I don't know what it's like for the guys that are more guy-like who use PC though. What I've heard from them has been quite vague.

Me... I really am wired like a girl. I respond to all the same hormonal fluctuations in the same way as any other girl. I just wasn't producing them on my own.

From what I can tell though, I'm sort of unusual around here in that way.

[MonikaT]

Someone posted this thread link in another thread in this forum last month. I had to go searching through my browser history to find it.

http://www.breastnexus.com/showthread.php?tid=5135

Most of the info comes from a book by Dr. Lee. Hopefully it is helpful.

[Pansy-Mae]

sfem,
I totally agree about vague thoughts and ideas that become 'facts' due to repetition on the 'net', so I have to say that much of what I'm about to say here is either theory or my personal experience, not scientific fact!

My views on progesterone have modified slightly recently, but in extended detail not in basic substance.

It is a fact that GG's only start to produce it part-way through the puberty process and its effect as far as we are concerned is to round out the triangular shape of a teenage breast, and on that basis it is pointless taking prog until you've got something to round out! (I also have an unsubstantiated theory that it also stops the estrogen-fuelled underlying structure development) .

I've tried prog cream ( USP nature identical) twice, at different times and it didnt do anything noticeable. I'm not sure why, it could have been that it was too soon ( i.e not enough basic tissue to expand) or it could have been that I didn't do it for long enough, or it could have been
that I wasnt using enough or that it wasn't penetrating well enough.
It is very difficult to be consistent with the amount of cream that you scoop out of a pot!

However going back to basics, as we know, there is no natural herbal-type source of progesterone. There are synthetic progestins which have potential health issues, or there is nature-identical USP progesterone which is factory made. However, progesterone itself does not readily pass through the stomach wall and therefore the only way of getting it into the body is via a topical cream - or has been until relatively recently. About 18months ago(?), just before she disappeared, JulieTG was talking about Micronised Progesterone ( Microgest) which I'd never herad of at the time. However on investigating, this is nature-identical USP progesterone sprayed in to peanut oil in a form which does allow it to pass through the gut wall. Now I know that at that time, the debate got very heated about the dangers ingesting something which was 'unproven' and came from a pharmaceutical company, but speaking personally I see no difference between puttting it on your skin to be absorbed into the bloodstream, or putting it into your stomach to be absorbed, it's no different to ingesting PM or applying it as a cream, in my mind.

So, on that basis, at the end of last year I tried the Microgest. It took about a month before I noticed anything but then the change was quite noticeable quite quickly and I think that was behind the sudden spurt that I saw in early January. I could certainly feel it, there was definite increase in 'touch sensation' at the top inner side of both breasts, i.e it felt as though the gap was beginning to close to start to give proper cleavage. Conversely, I suspect that this is part of the dramatic size reduction when I stopped taking both PM and Microgest in mid-Jan. What I dont know is whether the volume reduction was because the prog contribution to my volume was new and hadn't 'set' or if it is always prone to disappear quickly if the source is removed - I suspect a bit of both.

I definitely plan to restart the MIcrogest but I'm wanting to get the PM growth feelings restarted first.

Hope this helps, but as always these are just my thoughts.

[Pansy-Mae]

The King vs. Leder studies comparison suggests to me that maybe we are missing a bet by not trying taking our entire shot of PM at once daily, first thing in the morning. Does anyone else think that might be rational? Anyone tried that approach with a large dose (>1g) long enough (more than a week) to tell if it makes a difference?

Well, sorry to bang on about my headaches, but taking a large dose ( 3g ) in one go causes them big time, spreading the same amount throughout the day eases things.
i.e 3g = virtually instant head explosion and NOTHING helps.
2x 1.5g gives me a day or so before the explosion.
3 x 1g gives me 2 or 3 days and Ibuprofen then helps a bit.

Plus if the life of PM in the body is only 3 hours as somebody ( Abi?) said recently, then you are wasting both time and money. This may be one significant difference between natural estrogens and PM.

[sfem]

In my own case, too much PM in a single dose in the past has brought on serious muscle pain mostly in my lower legs. That was pre-R1. I was just wondering if there was evidence that it might be worth trying again for myself, or for anyone else. Abi has found it beneficial. Others, such as Bryony and yourself and myself have encountered specific side effects doing it. I think I will give it another spin and see what happens. Not that I want more size, but I wouldn't object to some shape improvement. What happened for you Pansy-mae is the kind of shape improvement I'm looking for. I probably should just get more serious about my weight.

[MonikaT]

In my own case, too much PM in a single dose in the past has brought on serious muscle pain mostly in my lower legs. That was pre-R1. I was just wondering if there was evidence that it might be worth trying again for myself, or for anyone else. Abi has found it beneficial. Others, such as Bryony and yourself and myself have encountered specific side effects doing it. I think I will give it another spin and see what happens. Not that I want more size, but I wouldn't object to some shape improvement. What happened for you Pansy-mae is the kind of shape improvement I'm looking for. I probably should just get more serious about my weight.

Two things. First, remember that for males, T is highest first thing in the morning.

Second, remember that Abi is using liquid extract, not powder or capsules so it is probably easier to take an entire day's dose first thing in the morning.

[AbiDrew85]

Plus if the life of PM in the body is only 3 hours as somebody ( Abi?) said recently, then you are wasting both time and money. This may be one significant difference between natural estrogens and PM.

Wasn't me... Though I did chime in on the conversation about it. Back then I -was- taking my doses throughout the day and honestly did think it helped. But I really wasn't taking large enough doses nor cycling like I should've been.

I now believe that I was doing myself a disservice.

Second, remember that Abi is using liquid extract, not powder or capsules so it is probably easier to take an entire day's dose first thing in the morning.

Yes. And this definitely makes a difference on two levels. One, the liquid is VERY easy to take large doses all at once physically. It's also very easy to take very small doses. Two, the liquid has less "extra" in it, so it's possible there are contaminants in the powder that causes the effects I don't get taking my large doses which all the rest of you seem to get when you attempt to with the powder.

[MonikaT]

Plus if the life of PM in the body is only 3 hours as somebody ( Abi?) said recently, then you are wasting both time and money. This may be one significant difference between natural estrogens and PM.

If memory serves, it is Bryony who has said on several occasions the half-life of PM seems to be about 3 hours.