[SeeCup]

I realize this forum is all about "natural" breast enhancement, however, I am about to begin a 90 day program using pharmaceutical grade hormones to compare the progress of herbs verses hormones
While the cost is an obvious negative, it may be offset by the length of time ( assuming there is an end to this journey)

Below is my current program:

After Breakfast ( 8:00am) and after dinner ( 8:00pm)
PM 500mg x 3 twice daily = 3000 mg daily
BO ( Symplex F by Standard Process) 2 tablets twice a day
SP 540mg x 4 twice daily = 4320 mg daily

After Lunch (12:30pm) and before bed (11:00 PM)
Red Clover Blossom & Herb 430mg x 2 twice daily = 860 mg daily
Blessed Thistle 340mg x 2 twice daily = 680 mg daily
Dong Quai 500mg x 2 twice daily = 2000 mg daily
Fenugreek Seed 610mg x 2 twice daily = 1220mg daily
Mexican Wild Yam 500mg x 2 twice daily = 2000mg daily

I also use the NB daily for no more than 45 min

And beginning July 1st my program will be:

Estrace 2mg 3 times daily
Spironolactone 100mg 2 times daily
PM 500 Mg 3 times daily

And I will try to stop using NB (Fun habits are hard to break)

[AbiDrew85]

Estrace 2mg 3 times daily
Spironolactone 100mg 2 times daily
PM 500 Mg 3 times daily

And I will try to stop using NB (Fun habits are hard to break)

You aren't really doing an either or comparison if you're continuing with PM while taking estradiol.

And I don't honestly think taking anything multiple times a day is actually good... but that seems to be just me. I think that way because naturally speaking womens hormones spike around 7-9 in the morning and slowly fall the rest of the day.

[MonikaT]

Looking at your current program, there seems to be a conflict. For whatever reason, it is not advised to use PM and BO together. It is either/or.

In fact, you seem to be spending a lot of money on competing herbs. RC competes with PM. The body has only so many estrogen receptors. The idea is to tie them up with either estrogen or a phyto-estrogen to stimulate them. BO is a source of estrogen. RC and PM are phyto-estrogens. PM is more powerful than RC.

Estrace is more powerful than PM. Taking PM could reduce the effectiveness of estrace. I'm not sure 90 days is enough time to see if anything works, though pharmaceuticals are more powerful than herbs and glandulars.

Just my two cents. If I'm wrong about something, I'm sure folks will correct me.

Abi is correct about hormone levels being at their highest around 8:00 in the morning. The same is true of testosterone.

[AbiDrew85]

Looking at your current program, there seems to be a conflict. For whatever reason, it is not advised to use PM and BO together. It is either/or.

Actually in that particular case I don't see much of a conflict...

In fact, you seem to be spending a lot of money on competing herbs. RC competes with PM. The body has only so many estrogen receptors. The idea is to tie them up with either estrogen or a phyto-estrogen to stimulate them. BO is a source of estrogen. RC and PM are phyto-estrogens. PM is more powerful than RC.

Here, however, there be truth.

Estrace is more powerful than PM. Taking PM could reduce the effectiveness of estrace. I'm not sure 90 days is enough time to see if anything works, though pharmaceuticals are more powerful than herbs and glandulars.

This gets a little murky again... Bear in mind that herbs work for women, women who arguably ought to already have significantly more estradiol than any biological male ever should without taking something for it.

The trick is that there's actually different kinds of all the different hormone receptors and certain things bind more strongly/weakly to different kinds. There's two MAJOR receptor types for estrogens, and for the most part, animal estrogens seem to bind more strongly to one type, while plant estrogens more strongly to the other.

PM if nothing else is a powerful anti-carcinogen. Between binding to a certain kind of receptor and keeping any "extra" animal estrogens off it, which has been found to be a leading cause of cancer... and then the plethora of anti-oxidants and everything else... PM is fantastic stuff. And that's part of why I use it despite using estradiol as well. I'd like to keep my cancer risks as low as I can while still being who I really am.

Now, mixing glandulars with estradiol would be dumb. Those are both animal estrogens, and invites all kinds of potential problems, and them duking it out would be the least of my concerns.

Abi is correct about hormone levels being at their highest around 8:00 in the morning. The same is true of testosterone.

Thank you for confirming that, lol.

I don't think it's a matter of people not knowing though, but just not regarding it as important.

[Mandy88]

I am maybe going on Spiro soon and will continue to use PM and Progesterone cream with that. Do you have any thoughts or suggestions regarding this combination, Abi? You seem knowledgeable

[AbiDrew85]

I am maybe going on Spiro soon and will continue to use PM and Progesterone cream with that. Do you have any thoughts or suggestions regarding this combination, Abi? You seem knowledgeable

*shrug* What's the spiro dosing going to be? You using it FOR an anti-androgen, or for something else and just hoping to benefit from the anti-androgenic properties as a side effect?

The combination itself should be a pretty good one depending what exactly you're aiming for and dosing.

That's a big whammy if all you're after is just some mental benefit like some members here. If you're after more complete feminizing, then it's very very good.

I've considered spiro, but its costs outweigh its benefits for me personally... herbal anti-androgens wind up costing me less considering cost of the pills themselves, cost of dealing with side-effects, so on.

Of course, strictly speaking, the only thing still natural about what you're talking about is the PM... the spiro is a synthetic drug. Period. And the progesterone most likely is a PC which is derived from natural sources, but it's been made in a lab using semi-synthetic methods of breaking down the original compounds to produce progesterone (USP).

[lostacres6]

I am postmenopausal & just put on Premarin for dryness. Currently I've been on Eve's program for 1 yr. but I'd like to switch to PM. Any conflict in taking PM with Premarin?

[AbiDrew85]

I am postmenopausal & just put on Premarin for dryness. Currently I've been on Eve's program for 1 yr. but I'd like to switch to PM. Any conflict in taking PM with Premarin?

Ugh... well... no... shouldn't be... But premarin is evil stuff. Ask your doctor about being put on progynova or estrace or some form of estradiol... Premarin is just going to cause you all kinds of problems down the road... And it sounds like you're only recently postmenopausal? You have a lot of life left to live, don't let your doctor ruin things when you're 60/70+ by having you on premarin.

[Mandy88]

*shrug* What's the spiro dosing going to be? You using it FOR an anti-androgen, or for something else and just hoping to benefit from the anti-androgenic properties as a side effect?

I will use as an anti androgen, not sure what dose I end up with but I will start low anyway. Thanks for your reply