[jesse191]

I had been using red clover with fenugreek for 1.5 years, and it gets me a B-U growth of 3cm during my 1.5years with RC, despite losing 20kg of weight (diet and exercise). Due to RC's poor result, for the past 2 months, I had switched to Ainterol PM, took 500mg/ day.

One thing I realised is that I experienced a drop in libido, but there is no growth in B-U, or even itching/ pain on my nipple/ breast. So I went cold turkey for the past month, and now I'm back again

Please correct me if I'm wrong - drop in libido = estrogen is working. I was expecting at least some itching/ pain from the 2nd week onwards, but nothing happened. After reading all the articles and feedbacks by the forumers, I realised that the reason of my slow growth with RC (I'm using promensil) is due to the fact that it's estrogen + progesterone, while I'm having insufficient estrogen, I further topped it with FG. Meaning I have too much progesterone and I can't grow with too little estrogen.

If I'm not wrong, we need estrogen+progesterone+prolactin+growth hormone to grow.

My new plan will be taking PM(Ainterol) for estrogen. But I'm confused with progesterone and prolactin. Some say FG has both, some say a combo of Shatavari for progesterone and fenugreek for prolactin will be good.

I definately need advice on herbs for prolactin, and herbs for progesterone. It will be fantastic if any of you might know which herbs (and their dosage) are good to start with for both progesterone, and which for prolactin.

Thanks and you all rocks!

[chrissymarch]

I found the best results with just PM,it did take awhile to get the dosage that seems to suit me.Taking other herbs seemed to suppress the benifits of PM.

[Marina Kits]

Well, (looking over both my shoulders for someone more experienced and or intelligent than I) I think you're over complicating things. Drop everything else and just take PM. Follow this schedule:
week 1: 500mg PM / day
week 2: 1000mg PM / day
week 3: 1500mg PM / day
week 4: 2000mg PM / day
Hold at 2000mg daily for a couple weeks and see what happens. I bet you'll get some sensations and a bit of swelling in your chest. It's been said that some herbs and hormones compete with each other. I can't recall off hand what the specific interactions are but I'm pretty sure you have some of that going on with the cocktails you've mentioned.

[julieTG]

agreed
just PM

Julie

[MonikaT]

Every body is different. It took me eight months on PM to get any sensations. I got pain behind one nipple, then a month later, got pain behind the other nipple. The pain lasted a few days. I still don't have a knot or lump behind either nipple. I take
1000 mg PM twice daily
1220 mg FG three times daily
400 mg spearmint three times daily
250 mg SN three times daily

Spearmint and stinging nettles are fairly new additions, and it could be coincidence, but it wasn't until a few months after adding them that I got the pain behind the nipples.

[jesse191]

Hi chrissymarch,

Do you mind to share at what dosage do you experience growth?



Hi doodlebug2055,

I was on PM for 1 month, 1000mg/ day. I do feel a bit of tiny shots, but normally it lasted for like 2-5 minutes a day. Maybe like what you said, I was at a low dose (1g instead of 2g).

Why am I considering putting in more herbs - according to Isabelle, we will need permanent swelling for optimal growth. Sad to say I have yet to experienced that. According to her we will need estrogen+progesterone+prolactin+GH to achieve that. Of course, the dosage or type of herbs will differ according to different person.



Hi MonikaT,

It should not take 8 months to feel anything. Many forumers suggest that if there is no sign of growth (itchy/ pain) in 2 weeks time, you should be changing your program. Upping estrogen is what they normally do. But I'm not really sure exactly how to fine tune a personal regime.

[julieTG]

Jessie
Generally progesterone comes in later once you some breast growth

Personally I think 1000 mg is to low while fighting the t levels, ok once moderated though,

Perhaps 1500 mg will give you a comfortable start ?

If you ramp to high you will feel the pm and fast,

Brands ainterol or pm from pm uk are good,


Julie,

[jesse191]

Hi Julie,

This is something new for me and it make so much sense. Now I kind of understand why I have low libido with PM for just 1 month, and I was having normal libido while with RC for 1.5 years. I realised that it might be due to RC has progesterone in it, while PM is just pure Estrogen.

Just wondering, will the PM spray helps? I'm thinking to take PM 1000mg orally, and top it up with PM spray.

[chrishoney]

Just so we're all really clear, no herb or plant extract has progesterone in it. PM and other phytoestrogens have estradiol mimics, but they do not have estradiol or either of the other two estrogens that are normally present in humans. Humans also don't have the enzymatic pathway to convert the progesterone precursors found in some plant sources such as FG. So take as much FG or RC as you want, but it will do nothing for your serum progesterone levels. Whatever effects you notice from them comes from another path or substance, but NOT because they contain progesterone or your body makes progesterone from them.

And lastly, as far as I understand it, permanent breast growth is going to come from glandular tissue development along with the fat deposits that support them. Estradiol or a phytoestrogen mimic are mainly responsible for breast growth. In natal females progesterone is responsible for the final development of the alveoli which are lined with milk producing cells, but don't contribute significantly to overall breast tissue proliferation. Progesterone also causes water retention which can affect breast size temporarily and is the primary culprit in PMS symptoms. In men, progesterone is converted into testosterone. So, do you really want to increase your serum progesterone levels?

Hope this helps.

[PattiJT]

Thank you Chrishoney, seems it becomes periodically necessary to bring those facts back to light. I would also add that IMHO, allowing 2 weeks to notice changes before revamping a program, is just plain unrealistic. First, remember, when someone here says they started to "pop" 1 or 2 weeks into it, you have absolutely no way to verify that fact. Second, as it's been stated innumerable times, everyone is different. Myself, I started out on fair doses of Estrofem, going to Premarin, and it was 2 months before I had what I considered to be noticeable growth and subsequent sensitivity. We truly are all different. Patti