[Lotus]

FYI,

This is an ongoing study, if you have ever taken pain meds or currently on them this should interest you.


http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01...apy&rank=5

[Lotus]

Interesting,

some pain meds contribute to breast development in men.

[myboobs]

Interesting,

A couple of years ago a pain doctor informed me that some pain meds contribute to breast development in men. It was more of a statement made in passing, I should've asked him to elaborate, but never followed up on.

I'll follow up next time I see him!

Mariuana ?

[Lotus]

True enough,

Although the last time I did that was in the 80's,lol

[Lotus]

Understanding Free testosterone,

Testosterone is a type of hormone (a steroid hormone). It travels around the body in the blood. Some of it floats about in the blood freely without being attached to anything else. This is 'free' testosterone. Some testosterone is attached/bound to a protein called SHBG (sex hormone binding globulin). Some testosterone is attached to a protein called albumin. So 'total' testosterone is the sum of all the testosterone in the blood, no matter what it is bound to. Free testosterone is just the free stuff floating by itself. Only a few percent of testosterone is free.

It is traditionally thought that only free testosterone is biologically active, i.e. free testosterone does all the things testosterone is supposed to do, while the bound testosterone just sits there and stays attached to SHBG or albumin and doesn't do anything. It's kind a reserve of testosterone. Some people disagree with this and think that the testosterone bound to albumin is also active. Anyway, if someone has a normal amount of total testosterone, but a low amount of SHBG, then you can figure out that there must be more of the free testosterone, i.e. more testosterone free to have an effect on the body. Alternatively, someone might have a high amount of SHBG which would mop up the testosterone and leave very little free testosterone. So it can be useful to know roughly how much free testosterone there is, rather than just measuring total testosterone, which is what most tests do.

There are several calculations that estimate the amount of free testosterone, based on how much SHBG and total testosterone there is. It is possible to measure free testosterone directly, but it's complicated and is rarely done.

Keeping that in mind, consider this!

As a standalone herb, Nettle Root work intelligently to optimize sex hormones. For men, Nettle Root works primarily to keep testosterone active in the body for longer. On average, only 2% of total serum testosterone is free, and only free testosterone is active. The other 98% is bound testosterone and is no longer active. The glycoprotein sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) binds to free testosterone rendering it useless (and setting the stage for a dangerous series of chemical processes). Nettle Root works to bind to SHBG, so that testosterone does not. This dramatically increases levels of free testosterone, the kind of testosterone that works positively on the body, the mind, the soul. As Lee Myer, the popular men's health author, states, free testosterone is the type of testosterone "that will supercharge our brains, blood, muscles, sex lives and all the other things we associate with testosterone."

For women, Nettle Root works similarly, by blocking SHBG. SHBG has an affinity for all sex hormones, and keeping levels of free estrogen is important in women as is keeping levels of free testosterone is important in men. For most healthy individuals, High levels of estrogen and testosterone are damaging only after they have become bound to SHBG. Once estrogen or testosterone have become bound to SHBG, they begin the process of being converted into harmful estrogen metabolites, like esterdiol. By keeping these sex hormones free, the rates of conversion to harmful metabolites are decreased.

For men, Nettle Root even works to unbind testosterone which has already become bound by SHBG, further increasing levels of important free testosterone and further decreasing the conversion to estrogen metabolites.

So basically NR is considered a androgen, right?......well, it's stated that nettle root reverses BPH and androgenic alopecia (hair loss), Although it's stated elsewhere it's an anti-androgen. Here's where I'm going with this. Say that NR does it's job, and that it has an affinity also to effect that what we are dominate in at the given time, which would be estrogen,(mimics of PM?), and now would be unbound free testosterone and begins the aromatase process. Pine Pollen is suggested as an androgen to prevent the aromatase into estradiol. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estradiol

Why is it important to saturate both receptors to the best of your abilities? I'd think that should be pretty obvious - we're trying to emulate early puberty here. Tell our bodies it's still time to grow. What happens during early puberty? We're absolutely flooded with hormones. Which hit both receptors.

Abi was talking about alpha and beta receptors, and that BO and PM be taken at the same time, as taboo as it was or seemed, but who hasn't thought about that combo before?....with moderation of course.

Again I'm talking about free testosterone uncorked by Nettle Root, combined with PM and whatever else the current program is!

Estrogen receptors are a group of proteins found inside cells. They are receptors that are activated by the hormone estrogen (17β-estradiol).[1] Two classes of estrogen receptor exist: ER, which is a member of the nuclear hormone family of intracellular receptors, and GPER, which is a member of the rhodopsin-like family of G protein-coupled receptors. This article refers to the former (ER).
Once activated by estrogen, the ER is able to translocate into the nucleus and bind to DNA to regulate the activity of different genes (i.e. it is a DNA-binding transcription factor). However, it also has additional functions independent of DNA binding.[2]

Here's a video explaining NR/T/E connection, again I have nothing too do with or selling of this product.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=RdnFlW8OArM

Ok, out there? Maybe

But reports of between .07 to 2-5 % free Testosterone for men, what's the truth?

[Lotus]

True Louise, if I remeber correctly the levels of testosterone are 20x greater in men than in women. I'm also thinking nettle root actually has a dual action on estrogen - diminishing it by directly blocking its synthesis, but by diminishing testosterone it could indirectly increase estrogen, because testosterone inhibits estrogen. So I wonder what the net effect is.

Oh, and now I remember I noticed my hairs grew less and slower after I started taking nettle root. Tho I was also on BCP at the same time.

Found this in a closed archive thread by ADMIN.

Interestingly, the male body manufactures its own supply of female hormone.

Where does it get it?

It makes it out of that most masculine of all substances, testosterone. An enzyme called aromatase is widely present in the body and converts a certain portion of the male hormone into the female.

When it comes to estrogen, the window of optimum effectiveness in the male body is very small. Estrogen produced by this conversion can actually unlock or displace testosterone at its various cellular receptor sites. Consequently, too much estrogen will switch off activities.

The control mechanism aspect of estrogen can get out of hand as we grow older. Illness, drugs, dietary imbalances, lifestyle and certain aspects of normal aging help accelerate this process and raise estrogen levels to unhealthy heights. One of the first things we notice is that levels of aromatase, the testosterone-to-estrogen converter, increase. This is, in part, because systems for controlling aromatase falter. In addition, methods of eliminating estrogen once it has been created decline. As a result, the typical middle-aged man becomes overestrogenized."

[Lotus]

This product suggests to have the same purpose as NR, understanding what it does rather than the selling of the product needs to be discussed.

Trenevar (Tren) Estra-4,9,11-triene-3,17-dione - high affinity for androgen receptors ..... Testosterone in the human body exists either in a free circulating form or in .... You will now be able to make it through the the deep water while passing the ...... PCT 350's anti-aromatase activity prevents the aromatization of testosterone, ...

http://www.nutritiondome.com/estrgenex.html - Hi-Tech Estrogenex 90 tabs - Increases Free Testosterone, Decreases Estrogen. ESTROGENEX™ is a nutritional supplement, available without a prescription, designed to normalize all hormone levels, yielding a wide spectrum of health and anti-aging benefits. The male hormone testosterone moves about the body in a free state (about 2% in normal men) or bound to one of two plasma proteins- sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) or albumin. Only when testosterone is in its free state can it interact with cellular receptors (e.g., trigger muscle-building activity).

Testosterone has two metabolites that pose potential problems for aging males and also for bodybuilders and athletes. One is estradiol (testosterone is converted to estradiol by the enzyme aromatase) and the other is dihydrotestosterone (DHT) (testosterone is converted to DHT by the enzyme 5-alpha reductase). As men age, there is a dramatic decrease in testosterone production, but without a corresponding decrease in the production of estradiol and DHT. Even though testosterone levels have plummeted, the aromatization of testosterone to estradiol is maintained, or even accelerated, and more testosterone is also being aromatized in fatty tissues. This creates excess levels of estradiol and, as a consequence, a blood level ratio of testosterone to estradiol that continues to decline, tipping the scale in balance of an estradiol-dominant environment.

Supports Healthy Sex Hormone Levels of Testosterone and Estradiol in Aging Men.

Promotes Optimal Endogenous Anabolic Hormone Levels for Bodybuilders and Athletes.

ESTROGENEX is a multi-pathway formulation that minimizes or eliminates the undesirable effects associated with an estrogen dominant environment. ESTROGENEX ™ maintains the correct testosterone to estrogen ratios that yield the benefits associated with normal estrogen levels. ESTROGENEX acts as an irreversible anti-aromatase agent and is thus a powerful elevator of total testosterone and maximum liberator of free testosterone. ESTROGENEX may also play a role in long-term selective estrogen blocking and/or inhibition of selective estrogen signaling. ESTROGENEX™ may contribute to notable improvements in muscular growth and fat loss, in addition to its wide array of health and anti-aging benefits.

ESTROGENEX ™ is designed for:

Normalization of all hormone levels, with specific tendencies toward testosterone dominance, in all aging males.

Prevention and reversal of Gynecomastia.

Adjunctive supplementation for men undergoing hormone replacement therapy to ensure that raising testosterone levels will not yield an undesirable increase in estrogen levels.

A natural, more effective alternative for traditional testosterone hormone replacement therapy.

Bodybuilders and athletes during and immediately after periods of anabolic steroid use for the purpose of stimulating endogenous testosterone production.

Testosterone: Free-Testosterone and Plasma Protein-Bound Testosterone.

Testosterone exists in the blood in either an active (free) or unbound state (+-2%) or inactive state bound to one of two proteins: sex-hormone-binding-globulin (SHBG) (+-45%) or albumin (+-53%). Only when testosterone is in its free state can it directly interact with cellular receptors and exert its activity. SHBG preferentially binds to testosterone over estrogen. Higher levels of SHBG in women help to maintain higher estrogen to testosterone ratios. Increased estrogen leads to an increase in SHBG. Thus, lowering the level of SHBG allows for an increased level of free testosterone. Obviously, if testosterone finds it more difficult to locate available plasma proteins in the presence of the additional compound, more will be left in an unbound state.

The amount of free testosterone can be altered (increased) by the use of aromatase inhibitors (the less testosterone that is synthesized [aromatized] into estrogen, the more total testosterone) or inhibitors of the plasma proteins that bind into testosterone. Manipulating the tendency of a testosterone to exist in an unbound state is an effective way to alter the overall activity and potency of one’s overall testosterone levels. Higher levels of testosterone produce an enhanced anti-glucocorticoid effect, which yields an anti-catabolic, or more precisely, anti-proteolytic, effect on muscle cells. This indirect anabolic effect is the result of testosterone’s high affinity for binding with glucocorticoid receptors, thus blocking the normal messenger pathway that triggers protein release from muscle tissue. More free testosterone also likely results in higher concentrations of IGF-1 and IGF-1 receptor sites in skeletal muscle tissue. Correspondingly, lower testosterone also likely yields less IGF-1 production and a corresponding decrease in IGF-1 receptor sites. Lower free testosterone also likely means a weaker immune system.

The Synthesis (Aromatization) of Testosterone to Estrogen in Males and the Significance of Maintaining Correct Testosterone to Estrogen Ratios.

Although testosterone is considered to be a male hormone and estrogen a female hormone, both hormones exist in both males and females and serve important functions for both. Estrogen is a term that really represents a collection of female hormones, with esterone predominating. Since esterone is the estrogen that is normally in the highest concentration, it is an excellent marker for basic estrogen levels for that reason. At least three estrogens have multiple and overlapping functions. Men obtain their estrogen through the action of the aromatase, which synthesizes (aromatizes) testosterone into estrogen. However, when concentrations of estrogen become too high and/or the normal ratio of testosterone to estrogen decreases, the potential for the development of undesirable conditions arises. This includes the development of the female breast tissue (gynecomastia), increased body fat and water retention. Also, research suggests that DHT and prostate tissue growth have a direct connection to above normal estrogen elevations and reduced testosterone levels.

The ESTROGENEX Mechanism of Action

The ESTROGENEX proprietary formula was developed by combining naturally occurring aromatase inhibitors and inhibitors of the action of SHBG. The primary active ingredients in ESTROGENEX ™ are Coumesterol and Chrysin. ESTROGENEX ™ does not exert its action through any direct hormonal or prohormonal activity (androgenic or estrogenic).

Before ESTROGENEX, little success had been achieved using chrysin as an effective aromatase inhibitor because chrysin is poorly absorbed in the bloodstream. However, in addition to their own specific aromatase inhibiting and estrogen blocking actions, the proprietary blend of other ingredients work in synergy with chrysin to maintain a stable estrogen environment. We also incorporated our proprietary delivery system called EXTEND-RX ™ to avoid competing with other hormones such as testosterone in the Aromatase Cytochrome P450.

It is believed that ESTROGENEX ™ exerts its effects through several mechanisms of action, which can be classified into two groups: as an inhibitor of the aromatase enzyme responsible for the conversion of testosterone to estrogen and an inhibitor of the action of SHBG, and as a blocker of selective anabolic estrogen receptors and/or inhibitor of selective estrogen signaling.

Substances that are aromatase inhibitors block the action of the enzyme aromatase that converts testosterone to estrogen. Substances that act as an anti-estrogen are those that block the estrogen receptor. Thus, even though there is estrogen circulating in the blood, the estrogen cannot exert its effects because it is blocked from attaching to its estrogen receptor. The dietary supplement ESTROGENEX ™ is a multi-pathway agent that exerts its influence by blocking various stages in the aromatase process and by inhibiting SHBG’s action; an activity not clearly addressed by any of the aromatase inhibiting or anti-estrogen products. Further, it appears that use of ESTROGENEX ™ may result in long-term blocking of selective anabolic estrogen receptors and/or inhibition of selective estrogen signaling (these anabolic estrogens are those demonstrating the undesirable effects associated with breast cancer and gynecomastia). This activity has not been addressed by any known dietary supplements or pharmacological agents.

ESTROGENEX as an Elevator of Total Testosterone and Liberator of Free Testosterone

As a powerful aromatase inhibitor, ESTROGENEX ™ also possesses notable testosterone stimulating properties. The aromatase inhibiting action reduces the signal that estrogen sends to the brain to suppress endogenous testosterone production (estrogen is a main feedback signal to control the release of testosterone, thus increasing the testicular output of testosterone).

ESTROGENEX ™ thus assists in resetting the body’s level of its own natural testosterone production by regulating the activity of the hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis (HPTA), which constantly adjusts the body's production of testosterone to maintain target blood levels. Continued use of ESTROGENEX ™ results in not only a significant reduction in the production of estrogen, but also a corresponding substantial increase in endogenous testosterone.

Only ESTROGENEX ™ addresses all possible channels to estrogen maintenance and free testosterone elevation, which means optimal hormonal levels for muscle building, fat loss and anti-aging support.

[Lotus]

Careful on the spearmint,

Too much can tip the balance:

I wouldn't suggest such doses for anyone not looking to transition fully. 800mg should be sufficient for simply taking the edge off the androgens without nearly killing them. 400 may even suffice. Maybe as much as 1200mg.

When I've backed off the spearmint desire returns, otherwise spearmint is an effective anti-androgen.

[Lotus]

More info on spearmint,


http://www.livingnaturally.com/ns/DisplayMonograph.asp?StoreID=E32FA6C399AB4C99897032581851D45D&DocID=basic-interactions-spearmint
Check out the lab interactions



http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/spic...z2om3rdN70

[Lotus]

Fenugreek facts and other benefits,

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/3286242/

http://healing.answers.com/herbs/can-fen...f-diabetes

Don't forget about the smell
http://nutritionfacts.org/video/side-eff...nsumption/ Yuck!.... Odor assessor?.....