If you do get your head around it... let me low please... I gave up trying to figure it out a decade ago.... it is what it is.... and I accept it...

What sort of emotional benefits are you seek, frontier?

CK

I am hoping to be less anxious, more in touch with my emotions, less obsessed with sex, essentially a more feminine mind to match my internal conception of myself.

I've always felt too ruled by testosterone and PM sounds like a chance to change that.

I also want to feminize my body without it becoming so obvious that I can't easily pass as a normal male. I'm concerned about the possibility of PM causing drastic physical changes. Most people don't have very extreme breast growth do they?

Hello frontier,

I think you should consider your current lifestyle. Do you go to the gym (or ice rink) and use the shower? Do you like to go to the beach or pool? Basically, how often, where, and when do you walk around topless? AND would you avoid these activities, even if it is something you enjoy, because you have female breast instead of a male chest.

It is because of some of those reasons that have yet to cross the 500mg/threshold. I take so little I may experience more of a placebo effect if anything at all.

But I'm in the under 40 age group. When I'm 55+ maybe I just won't care anymore. Most older men have moobs these days anyways. I know my maternal grandfather certainly did. I remember being rather embarressed as a child when he took us to the pool by his moobs. But he didn't care. He loved to swim.

Hope this helps,

What sort of emotional benefits are you seeking, frontier?

CK

I am hoping to be less anxious, more in touch with my emotions, less obsessed with sex, essentially a more feminine mind to match my internal conception of myself.

I've always felt too ruled by testosterone and PM sounds like a chance to change that.

I also want to feminize my body without it becoming so obvious that I can't easily pass as a normal male. I'm concerned about the possibility of PM causing drastic physical changes. Most people don't have very extreme breast growth do they?

Those were my goals exactly, and still are. PM is working for me better than I ever thought it would at the outset. It is an amazingly powerful phyto-estrogen. The only potentially 'drastic' physical change will be breast growth. The amount of breast growth you ultimately get is an open question. Some say expect one or two cup sizes less than your mother's, but I have a sister who is considerably larger than my mom.

My strategy is to grow slowly, take only the amount of PM needed to keep the mental benefits, and keep a log of my progress (with pictures) including any changes in my mental attitude. I'll bail out if I find myself becoming consistently regretful of my decision. Frankly, I don't think that's going to happen. On the contrary, I'm liking my breasts more and more every day. I seem to be 'growing' into my new found gender identity.

I don't know how old you are, whether you are in a serious relationship with someone, or whether having kids someday is a factor. These are things you need to take into account. I'm not in favor of keeping one's NBE a secret from a spouse. For me, having my wife's blessing on this has been a huge plus for my mental well being. Not everyone is as fortunate that way.

It's not a bad idea to hold off on starting NBE until it becomes very clear to you that it's the right thing to do.

CK

On the contrary, I'm liking my breasts more and more every day. I seem to be 'growing' into my new found gender identity.

I don't know how old you are, whether you are in a serious relationship with someone, or whether having kids someday is a factor. These are things you need to take into account. I'm not in favor of keeping one's NBE a secret from a spouse. For me, having my wife's blessing on this has been a huge plus for my mental well being. Not everyone is as fortunate that way.

It's not a bad idea to hold off on starting NBE until it becomes very clear to you that it's the right thing to do.

CK

As your breasts grow do you find yourself changing your initial ideas about how large you'll allow them to get? Can you still hide them if you want to?

As for me, I've never been married and don't plan on ever having kids. I think my gender issues contribute to my having few serious relationships. I've always liked women, but felt that I couldn't really be with a woman long term when I felt that I was not 100% male. Does that make sense?

As your breasts grow do you find yourself changing your initial ideas about how large you'll allow them to get? Can you still hide them if you want to?

Those are good questions. I can only speak for myself as a relative newbie to NBE. Yes, I'm more open to growing breasts than at the start. And, yes I believe it will be possible to hide them under clothing up to a point. But, face it, I'll be inviting stares if I go shirtless at the beach or use the YMCA showers.

As for me, I've never been married and don't plan on ever having kids. I think my gender issues contribute to my having few serious relationships. I've always liked women, but felt that I couldn't really be with a woman long term when I felt that I was not 100% male. Does that make sense?

It makes perfect sense, but don't sell yourself short. I've had the same problem in my love life, but I found and married an understanding woman and have three grown children. All it would take is for you, a MTF crossdreamer, to meet a nice FTM crossdreamer (girlfag) and you have a match made in heaven!

I'm not trying to discourage you, frontier. Just think things through before setting out on this (or any) path.

CK

Hello Frontier,

Welcome to the forum.

A number of members have already given you good advice. I'll try to share my own opinions without being redundant.

Not everyone experiences mental benefits from taking pm, but those that do typically feel it before getting noticeable breast growth. The dosage recommendations for mental benefits vs. breast growth may vary or be the same depending on the individual. For a while I suspected my dosage for mental benefits exceeded the amount for breast growth. However, adding spearmint to my regime helped to lower the former's dosage requirements I think.

As far as wanting the benefits but not the breasts, my suggestion would be to put some serious thought into your gender identity and to what extent are you open to bending or breaking society's rules concerning the expression of gender. Depending on your gender identity, you may come to realize that having developing breasts is not such a horrible thing and actually accept or embrace such changes. If on the other hand you are deeply concerned about the potential scorn from your family, friends, employer, etc., maybe NBE is not something for you at this time. Golus poses a number of good questions to consider regarding this I think.

In regards to hiding them, it varies. No matter I wear, I usually got some projection going for me. Wearing layers or certain kinds of colors or fabrics can partially conceal my development. However, those with a keen eye for detail can probably discern the fact I don't have the typical flat male chest. I posted some pictures of me wearing a sports bra underneath a shirt in one of my picture threads. I believe one member (sfem I believe), made the point that once you attain a certain amount of growth, the most you can do for concealment is making your breasts look like moobs.

Hypothetically you could try to get solely the mental benefits by taking a low dose of pm combined with an anti-androgen like SP or spearmint. However, my thoughts are if you don't want breasts whatsoever, don't take NBE herbs.

Yes, your comment on relationships make sense. I'm also single and have no plans on having kids. (I don't think it would be possible for me anymore). I still would like to have a female partner, one that is open and accepting of my nonconforming gender identity.

Those are good questions. I can only speak for myself as a relative newbie to NBE. Yes, I'm more open to growing breasts than at the start. And, yes I believe it will be possible to hide them under clothing up to a point. But, face it, I'll be inviting stares if I go shirtless at the beach or use the YMCA showers.

I can only imagine what would happen if I went topless in a public shower room or somewhere.

Welcome Frontier,

About me:
I’m a would be MTF but choose not to because of my commitment to my wife and kids. I started NBE in February 2013 hoping to quell desire to transition but not opposed to breasts. Today I enjoy an almost nonexistent sex drive (no porn or masturbation) and greatly heightened awareness of emotions (more sensitive, less irritable). I take 1500 -2000mg PM, 640mg SP and 1000mg Spearmint daily. I have only slight breast grow to date.

I second almost everything that's been said suggested above but if I were in your shoes Frontier and wanted mood / emotional changes without breast growth, I'd try taking 320-640mg of Saw Palmetto [85% extract] and 1000mg Spearmint daily for a month. If you don't feel the desired changes, add 500mg of PM daily for one month and increase it by 500mg per month until you do feel your mood change not to exceed 1500mg daily. My theory is that you can get the mental effect by reducing your DHT with SP and your free testosterone with spearmint. However, no one has proved that theory for me and I'm not willing to drop my PM to test it myself because, as I mentioned earlier, I'm not opposed to breast development.

[edit in brackets]

Those doses seem really low to me doodle. I assume we're talking SP extract, and in that case around 1000mg/day is what it took me to notice much of a difference. Spearmint, I was usually around 3000mg/day.

Which is why I moved on to Fincar/Siterone instead. I know none of it is good for your liver but i have to think that the herbal doses I listed are worse than the pharma drugs in modest dosages.

To each their own though. Actually, I just realized that you're 10 yrs older than me. Maybe that's why I seem to need more to kill the DHT/Free T.

Frontier,
I find it increasingly difficult to be more feminine, yet continue to present convincingly like a man on a daily basis. Having breasts will be the main give away, but it's interesting how allowing your inner woman to express herself a little makes her demand more and more room to blossom. That can happen even without other physical changes to your body.

It really depends on how strong your female gender identity is. Taking PM seems to affect the mind in unpredictable ways, too. It seems to activate a part of your brain that has lain dormant and unnoticed for years.

I find myself watching girls a lot more. Not just in a sexual way, but noticing how the talk and move, how they dress and adorn themselves. I find myself doing little things differently now, driven by my subconscious desire to be more like them. That's the scariest thing for me. That is, seeing myself being taken over slowly by this other me who has been given license to lay claim to my soul.

So even if you do all you can to preserve the image of yourself as a man to the world, you will begin to let go of it little by little, consciously and subconsciously. It's inevitable because that's who you are. It's just a matter of degree. The question many of us ask ourselves is: Am I transsexual? It's very hard to know how far the transitioning process will take you until you take the first step.

Now if that's not scary....

CK

Hehe, actually kinda terrifying and thrilling at the same time. It's pretty disturbing how much human behavior boils down to brain chemistry and hormone levels.

My earliest childhood memories were of praying to God every night that I'd wake up as a girl, but even so....before PM I stated I had zero interest in presenting as a female in public. 2 years later, I'm wearing makeup and girl clothes more often than not. Obsessed with pumping, hair removal, voice therapy and possible surgery. Granted, I take "harder" stuff than PM now, but it was PM at the start of the slippery slope. I have no regrets though, aside from wishing I'd discovered it sooner! Hell, I even ditched drugs and smoking, and went back to college lol. Almost a different person now, tbh.

Of course, everyone's different. I wasn't very functional in society at all before taking phytoestrogens, and never really thought of myself as a "man", so there's that .

If any of this scares you, you may want to rethink things. If it excites you in any way, then go for it.

Anyways, as for the other physical changes...I'd say I've had more of the "other" changes than I have breast growth lol. I would elaborate, but its the commonly mentioned stuff, and i find the mental changes more interesting than the physical ones. Probably a result of my wonderfully dead sex drive.

I take 1500 -2000mg PM, 640mg SP and 1000mg Spearmint daily. I have only slight breast grow to date.

I'd try taking 320-640mg of Saw Palmetto [85% extract] and 1000mg Spearmint daily for a month. If you don't feel the desired changes, add 500mg of PM daily for one month and increase it by 500mg per month until you do feel your mood change not to exceed 1500mg daily.

Those doses seem really low to me doodle. I assume we're talking SP extract, and in that case around 1000mg/day is what it took me to notice much of a difference. Spearmint, I was usually around 3000mg/day.

The one's I'M TAKING or the ones I recommended to Frontier Sarah? I'm kind of a minimalist when it comes to meds and herbs. I'll sooner take ONE than two of almost anything.

What I'm taking has devastated my sex drive, made me less irritable, more emotional etc, etc, etc. (for which I'm eternally grateful - especially the AWAL male sex drive!) and I know I don't need any more. Unfortunately, I can't be certain which one or what combination is responsible.

As for my recommendations for Frontier... maybe they are on the low side but I figure you can always increase things (I amended the SP info). ...Maybe I have forgotten what it's like to be a newbie though. More! Faster! NOW!!! I'm pretty lethargic about NBE now that the initial excitement has faded.