[flamesabers]

Hello everyone.

I think Patti brought about some important issues in another thread and I thought it would be best to start my own thread.

As for how much of the info on these sites applies to the majority of the male members here, that is hard to discern. Honestly, I don't think that very many of us are going to take the time to read much of it. Even though there is a wealth of info that applies to all of us, whether we use herbs or drugs, whether we have a "little bit of GID", or are TG, or TS. Straight up, I will tell everyone how I feel about that. I think, that if you are in here, (and not just reading for entertainment), and are actively attempting to "modify, alter, or enhance" your physical or mental appearance to be more female, then you need to re-evaluate your admitted position. Call yourself what you will, but the average well-adjusted male individual just doesn't go around harboring a desire to grow breasts. Every damned one of us should probably be in therapy. I understand the worries, "mucho embarrassment, and dire personal consequences will result"!! Doesn't change the fact that we are still "different". So, we do what we do, either in secret, or with the approval of wives, but even then, it usually stays out of the public eye. Why?? Because we totally know that it's not "normal". Get over it. Just a little case of GID? Says who? Says we. Because we think it makes us more comfortable that we're low on the scale, just a "little abnormal" and not really transsexed?? And just why does that matter?? Nobody in here has more than a digital relationship with anyone else, so if you can't be honest in here, then why bother? If you feel that much guilt about what you are that you can't admit to total strangers just how you feel, then, well, I just don't know. Is it possible that some of us won't own up to our trans feelings because this is an "NBE" site, and we would be looked down on because we're more than just another red-blooded male that simply wants to have his own personal pair of "tits" to carry around? Sure, "I take it only for the mental benefits". That's like saying "I only buy Playboy to read the stories". Just be honest with yourself. And with the rest of us. I don't recall seeing anything in this site that said "transsexuals not welcome". In some respects, maybe "that young kid" is farther along and more honest about just who he is, than a lot of us "more mature" individuals are.

Sorry, this really wasn't the place for all this, but one thing led to another. Feel free to start a poll to find out how many think Patti has lost it. Good thing this isn't "survivor" and you can't vote me off "the island". I'll withhold my vote.

I'm intrigued by your point about therapy. Imagine if we were all in group therapy!

On a more serious note, I don't think you've lost it. Quite the contrary.

Yes, I agree that the typical male would probably never visit this site, let alone take NBE herbs. Speaking for myself, I don't think I've marginalized my atypical gender identity and such. I don't think I'm in self-denial when I say I don't consider myself to be a transsexual. My reasoning for this is I lack the desire or conviction to transition. Ironically enough, I was only a little older than TYK when I was seriously contemplating my gender identity and whether I was a transsexual. Ultimately I would come to the conclusion I hold today. Without a doubt, I consider myself transgender, but I don't think transitioning is the answer for me.

In to regards to the issue of outing myself to the public, I think I hold a neutral position. I don't wear a button or shirt that says "I'm transgendered," but I don't go to any lengths to conceal my absence of manliness for lack of a better term.

I would definitely appreciate feedback from you or anyone else regarding this topic.

[PattiJT]

Flame,

I just harangued everyone with another post on that thread before I saw this. Would you be so kind as to move it here if any of it warrants? Thanks for putting this here, I really hated blowing the hell out of his thread, but, then, you've seen how I get, haven't you?

[GoneGirl]

Speaking for myself, I don't think I've marginalized my atypical gender identity and such. I don't think I'm in self-denial when I say I don't consider myself to be a transsexual. My reasoning for this is I lack the desire or conviction to transition. Ironically enough, I was only a little older than TYK when I was seriously contemplating my gender identity and whether I was a transsexual. Ultimately I would come to the conclusion I hold today. Without a doubt, I consider myself transgender, but I don't think transitioning is the answer for me.

In to regards to the issue of outing myself to the public, I think I hold a neutral position. I don't wear a button or shirt that says "I'm transgendered," but I don't go to any lengths to conceal my absence of manliness for lack of a better term.

I would definitely appreciate feedback from you or anyone else regarding this topic.

Flame, your words demonstrate what I meant when I said in the other post, "I like the balanced attitudes of the people here at BeastNexus who seem to have found a balance between their anima and animus." You are a prime example, and I admire you for it. Almost as much as I admire your beautiful breasts.

The problem that we TGs face is not that we have a mixed gender, most people do, I believe. It's more that expressing one's mixed gender is not always acceptable to people close to us whose attitudes reflect those of society as a whole.

I don't know what a typical male is anymore. I thought I was one as I was growing up, pursuing an education, finding employment, getting married, having children, doing male typical hobbies, etc. But, here I am growing a pair of breasts. WTF?

I'm beginning to believe that if cross gender expression was acceptable in society, you'd see a lot more of it. Why are loved ones often so shocked to learn that their son, brother, or father is transgender when the announcement is finally made? It's because we've become masters of deception. Holding back that part of ourselves that we don't understand or are afraid to reveal.

Some of us decide to acknowledge our feminine side for one reason or another. It might be the pain of not doing so, or it might be the joy of doing so. Some face the scorn of society head on and pay the full price for that expression. Some find a middle ground by mixing their male and female natures in a way that challenges the binary gender model without rocking the boat too much. Others dabble with gender expression, totally invisible to the world, not wanting to risk the consequences of revealing their other gender identity. Most refuse to acknowledge any cross gender inclinations at all, and don't want to see others do so either.

I was in the last group for most of my life. I've graduated to the next level only recently. I'd love to move up to be one of those straddling the divide like you, Flamesabers, and like you, I don't have any desire to transition all the way.

Patti wrote:

"Every damned one of us should probably be in therapy."

Some, yes, but for many, there's no GID to correct. There's nothing to cure. I simply need a way to express my inner woman so that I can move to a state of mental peace and well-being. I cannot go along with society's view that the way we are is abnormal, that we are flawed, that we need to be fixed somehow. We are normal people who happen to fall more or less in the middle of the gender spectrum. Get over it world!

It's society that needs to get fixed. But, that's not gonna happen in my life time. So I hide in the shadows and do my thing the best way I know how. And, you know? It's starting to work for me. This group is all the therapy I need.

CK

[myboobs]

I am not sure exactly where I stand !!
Does the desire to have breast and feminine butt. Is transgender ?
Yes.. I like lingerie and wear panties / thongs 24/7 .
But I still have male desires .
I don't want to loose my man identity .
Am I ready for the the men in white. Coat ?
This journey may change my attitude at later stage. As I have no pre-set notion of my eventual target .
I know at this stage I want some feminisation .
Will the herbs I take re-wire mmy brain diffrently ? -- don't know
So where do I stand ? TG / GID / tansexuual / TGIRL / totaly lost it ??
For now I am on similar. Journey as most men but our destination may wary .
I for one do not. Shirk to say things as they are . Preferably with bit of humour thrown in . That is my personality . No one can say I am a shrinking violet .
That is my 2 pennies worth boring the hell out of you all

[PattiJT]

all,

Lest there be any confusion, the sites that were mentioned by Flame are as follows.

http://www.tsroadmap.com/early/transsexu...mones.html

http://www.annierichards.com

http://annelawrence.com/endocrine_treatment_ts.pdf

Flame, you said you consider yourself transgender. I'm glad to hear that. Up to this point, I can only recall you claiming to be autogynosomething or other. That, to me, is a positive change. I would like to ask, why can't we be transsexual if we don't want to transition? You know, there are many who say they are transsexual, but forego SRS. So, are they wrong, and they are actually a TG or are we wrong in assuming someone who doesn't want full transition is "only" a TG? Many TS present and live as women, but for a variety of reasons, they never have SRS. I am TG, but if certain conditions were met, I would probably be TS. So, does that make me still TG, or an unfulfilled TS? To me, it really doesn't matter, as I am still able to be largely content with what I am (whatever that is), and in knowing that I am continuing to pursue higher goals. I also take a modicum of satisfaction in the fact that my wife is quite confused about the exact terms as well. She could live with me as a woman, but not if I had my "boy parts) removed. But, then I wouldn't be a woman, right? It gets a little entertaining watching her try to rationalize it all. And it doesn't help when I just look at her and say, "what ever you say, dear"!

Glad to hear you're not an "autobot" anymore. Sarah will probably be glad to know you're a little closer to her category, too. That is, if she's finalized hers, yet.

[GoneGirl]

Patti, my understanding is that since around 1990 most use the word "transgender" as an all encompassing umbrella term for any gender-variant condition, including transsexuals, inter-sex, and the gender-queer. A transsexual is one who chooses to live as the sex other than the one they were assigned at birth (SRS is not a requirement). Technically, you, Flame, and I are all gender-queer under the broad heading of "transgender". If you don't like the word "queer", "bi-gender" or "gender-fluid" are equivalent labels.

CK

[flamesabers]

Flame,

I just harangued everyone with another post on that thread before I saw this. Would you be so kind as to move it here if any of it warrants?

Sure, I can do that.

CK,
don't know if you misunderstood, but what I was attempting to say, was that some here explain their use of enhancement products as primarily, or solely, to ease their mental state. When the main reason, in reality, is to grow breasts, and feminize. But, to admit they want to grow breasts, to some, is just not an acceptable thing to confess. Face it, no one just wants breasts, it's usually more, and therefore to admit such, puts them in a position of admitting they are far more removed from the normality of society. I understand if you want to hide it from those close to you, but why the concern among those of us here? If you can't admit these feelings and desires to "digital acquaintances", then I don't see how you can ever really explain it to even yourself. That will not allow for self-understanding. I've seen those who say, "wow, I feel so much better about myself now with PM, too bad I might just grow boobs", then the same people will turn around and say, "turn loose the floodgates! I want all I can grow"!! Lack of consistency is ignored and accepted. If you have a position, stick with it. If you seriously don't know what you are, then say so, and don't just pick something that sounds good. Research, do some honest self-analysis, and try to figure it out, but don't just go along with the majority. And, if your position on any so-called scale evolves, by all means, let us know and explain it to us. One is not making a significant contribution to the discussion if the comments are just echoing previous comments because those previous comments were well received by the group. The conversation soon becomes stale and counterproductive, because not much new is being introduced. So, why not be honest about how you feel? Occasionally, someone is going to make a comment that seems so insignificant to them, but will cause a bunch of light bulbs to go off with other folks. That's progress. Maybe accidental progress, but still progress. And, CK, when I say you, I don't mean YOU. I'm generalizing, OK?

I hope I've been consistent.

I feel I've been transparent about how I feel. In my very first post on this forum I stated I had an interest in growing breasts. The idea of brain rewiring was unknown to me at that time, but I have long since held the belief I would benefit from altering my hormones from a masculine setup to an androgynous or even feminine one.

Before I became familiar with NBE, I already had dreams of feminizing my body: eliminating all facial hair and the hair on my hands, getting a trachea shave and feminizing the sound of my voice. Some may label me a transsexual for harboring such desires. I'm not bothered by this, I just don't think such a label is an accurate description of me.

CK,

thank you for your kind words of admiration.

Flame, you said you consider yourself transgender. I'm glad to hear that. Up to this point, I can only recall you claiming to be autogynosomething or other. That, to me, is a positive change. I would like to ask, why can't we be transsexual if we don't want to transition? You know, there are many who say they are transsexual, but forego SRS. So, are they wrong, and they are actually a TG or are we wrong in assuming someone who doesn't want full transition is "only" a TG? Many TS present and live as women, but for a variety of reasons, they never have SRS. I am TG, but if certain conditions were met, I would probably be TS. So, does that make me still TG, or an unfulfilled TS? To me, it really doesn't matter, as I am still able to be largely content with what I am (whatever that is), and in knowing that I am continuing to pursue higher goals. I also take a modicum of satisfaction in the fact that my wife is quite confused about the exact terms as well. She could live with me as a woman, but not if I had my "boy parts) removed. But, then I wouldn't be a woman, right? It gets a little entertaining watching her try to rationalize it all. And it doesn't help when I just look at her and say, "what ever you say, dear"!

Glad to hear you're not an "autobot" anymore. Sarah will probably be glad to know you're a little closer to her category, too. That is, if she's finalized hers, yet.

An Autobot? What's that? Transgender sounds better than androgynous? That never occurred to me.

In my mind, to be a transsexual is to say you are a member of the opposite sex that was born with the wrong type of body. I don't feel that statement fully describes me.

It's getting late so I'll have to wrap things up for now.

On a final note, Sarah was bothered by my androgynous label? I feel I'm being a bit thick-headed by saying this, but why would she feel better knowing I'm closer to her category of gender identity?

[Marina Kits]

If I would have read last spring what Patti posted, I would have been very conflicted and probably agreed that I should be getting counseling. I was torn up inside and very confused to say the least. I wasn't sure what I was and certainly didn't want to reveal my inner thoughts and feelings to anyone I knew personally because of the embarrassment and shame it would cause me. Now however, and thanks much to this forum, I don't feel like I need counseling at all. I know who I am. I can honestly say, I LIKE who I am (with the exception of my body) and I am even willing to be honest with others about the true me albeit, very cautiously. I'm still a little fuzzy about which adjective is most appropriate to describe me but I'M not ashamed to wear the TS or TG badge. As you all know, my wife is fully aware of the real me but I've also talked to my pastor about it and I'm trying to participate in a community group that would "expose" me to the general public.

All that said, I'm still not willing to literally have "Transsexual" embroidered on my blouse and wear skirts to work. Why? Because I'm not an, in-your-face kind of person, I don't want that to define me, those around me aren't ready for it and I'm not convinced any good would come of it for them or myself. I'd rather seize the little opportunities I have with those I encounter to gently introduce them to the real me and do what I can to open their minds to reasonable, ordinary people like me who feel like they're in the wrong body. It's easy for them to be a bigot when they don't personally know someone, when that someone sticks it in their face or acts in a stereotypical way. But if they've always known me and slowly come to realize who I really are, I think it's pretty hard for them to retain their calloused attitude towards me and me fellow transsexuals (or transgenders).

[GoneGirl]

Wow! This thread has attracted a lot of attention very quickly.

Doodlebug,
That's so cool that you are preparing to make your transgender status known to the community. I can imagine how good that makes you feel to have so much freedom to express your whole self. What does that mean in terms of your presentation in public over time? Feminine dress? Long hair? Makeup? Will you eventually transition to live as a woman?

CK

[SarahSchilling]

Glad to hear you're not an "autobot" anymore. Sarah will probably be glad to know you're a little closer to her category, too. That is, if she's finalized hers, yet.

Why is it I feel this is some sort of dig at me?

Autobot cracked me up though, so we're even lol

An Autobot? What's that? Transgender sounds better than androgynous? That never occurred to me.


On a final note, Sarah was bothered by my androgynous label? I feel I'm being a bit thick-headed by saying this, but why would she feel better knowing I'm closer to her category of gender identity?

LOL, it never bothered me aside from not being sure which pronoun to use when referring to you.

You can even be a Decepticon, its cool with me ;p (yes, I used to watch those cartoons)

At least androgynous has a definite meaning to me. TG/TS/TV seem to mean entirely different things to different people.

Anyways, to add a little more substance to this post...I definitely agree that people subconsciously convince themselves that they only want what they can handle at a given time. Like,"I'm just a guy that wants boobs, that's all" or "I just want the mental benefits, thats all", when they know they harbor somewhat more extreme inclinations.

Telling such people to be more honest with themselves is kind of futile....if they were able to, they likely would. It's not so much a deception as it is a coping mechanism. It's a tough thing to admit to oneself. Such desires will flow to the surface eventually regardless.

When I started taking PM, I was hoping that the mental balance it could possibly provide would allow me to tolerate life as a "man" (ewww). For a few months, it really did....but my tastes changed somewhat....and I started thinking about the future. For whatever reason, staying fucked up wasn't fun anymore and the prospect of working shitty jobs until i died scared me. So I got sober and went back to college.

Those mental benefits soon faded, and the sense of complete hopelessness returned. People began calling me ma'am from time to time, and I liked that.Looking at my life without the haze of drug use, I realized I don't have much to lose anyway. So I went from always having wanted to wake up as a girl but knowing that transition was more trouble than its worth to "Fuck, I only have one life to live, and I'm going to regret it if I don't even try to live as a woman!"

So there's your explanation for my change in thinking over my time here. Sorry if any of you feel that I deceived you.