[GoneGirl]

This subject is very interesting, but I'm confused.

Aromatase is an enzyme that is needed to convert testosterone to estrogen in males. Which T is converted to which E? Is it free T that is converted to estradiol, or DHT?

To what extend are either Spearmint (which is anti-free T) or Pygeum (which is anti-DHT) going to complete with WP (a pro-aromatase herb whose purpose is to convert T to E)?

Also, to what extend is an aromatase promoting herb like White Peony interfering with PM? The theory is that estradiol and miroestrol compete for the same estrogen receptors in breast tissue. The more powerful estradiol, increases the risk of developing a malignant tumor in the breast. Miroestrol (the estrogen mimic in PM) is weaker, and by displacing estradiol, lowers the risk of cancer of the breast. Doesn't that mean that we should be favoring PM for NBE over pro-aromatase herbs like WP?

I hope some one can set me straight on this because I'm planning to make a change in my program next week (currently PM + Spearmint) by adding Pygeum (an anti-5 alpha reductase).

And, Lisa Lou, if you read this...you wrote that you're planning to replace SP with Spearmint+WP, right? What is your reasoning behind choosing WP over, say, Pygeum?

Clara Kay

[myboobs]

fuffing fuf fuff !!
now i am totally lost
can someone lend me their brains

[Lotus]

Excellent questions CLara,

Would you like the short answer?, or the one that explains it in-detail?

[C vous plait]

More Chemisty! Details please.

[GoneGirl]

More Chemisty! Details please.

Ditto that!

[GoneGirl]

More Chemisty! Details please.

Ditto that!

But, translate for us dummies, Lotus (I'm speaking for myself, of course) LOL.

Clara

[Lotus]

This subject is very interesting, but I'm confused.

Aromatase is an enzyme that is needed to convert testosterone to estrogen in males. Which T is converted to which E? Is it free T that is converted to estradiol, or DHT?

About 90% of testosterone is produced by the testes; the remainder is produced by the adrenal glands. Non-protein bound testosterone is not constrained; however, only 2 percent of the testosterone that a man has, and 1 percent in a woman, is free or non-protein bound. In both men and woman, more than half of the total circulating testosterone is constrained by SHBG, which is sex hormone-binding globulin. The majority of the remaining testosterone is bound to albumin.

How does DHT protect against estrogen? There are at least three ways that this likely occurs. First of all, DHT directly inhibits estrogens activity on tissues. It either does this by acting as a competitive antagonist to the estrogen receptor or by decreasing estrogen-induced RNA transcription at a point subsequent to estrogen receptor binding.

Second of all, DHT and its metabolites have been shown to directly block the production of estrogens from androgens by inhibiting the activity of the aromatase enzyme. The studies done in breast tissue showed that DHT, androsterone, and 5alpha-androstandione are potent inhibitors of the formation of estrone from androstenedione. 5alpha-androstandione was shown to be the most potent, while androsterone was the least.

Lastly, DHT acts on the hypothalamus / pituitary to decrease the secretion of gonadotropins. By decreasing the secretion of gonadotropins you decrease the production of the raw materials for estrogen production – testosterone and androstenedione (DHT itself cannot aromatize into estrogens). This property of DHT comes into particular utility when it is administered exogenously, and this is to be discussed in further detail in the next section.



For the geeks
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles...ool=pubmed
http://press.endocrine.org/doi/full/10.1....2006-2203
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=134536051&page=3


To what extend are either Spearmint (which is anti-free T) or Pygeum (which is anti-DHT) going to complete with WP (a pro-aromatase herb whose purpose is to convert T to E)?
Your binding the DHT with Spearmint and Pygeum (preventing from becoming DHT,), the WP Converts what you do have available to be E.


Also, to what extend is an aromatase promoting herb like White Peony interfering with PM? The theory is that estradiol and miroestrol compete for the same estrogen receptors in breast tissue. The more powerful estradiol, increases the risk of developing a malignant tumor in the breast. Miroestrol (the estrogen mimic in PM) is weaker, and by displacing estradiol, lowers the risk of cancer of the breast. Doesn't that mean that we should be favoring PM for NBE over pro-aromatase herbs like WP?



http://chineseherbinfo.com/bai-shao-yao-...eony-root/ Big file! Careful!
descriptive-

I hope some one can set me straight on this because I'm planning to make a change in my program next week (currently PM + Spearmint) by adding Pygeum (an anti-5 alpha reductase).

And, Lisa Lou, if you read this...you wrote that you're planning to replace SP with Spearmint+WP, right? What is your reasoning behind choosing WP over, say, Pygeum?

Clara Kay

I'll start you off on that, short on time , I'll get back to ya!

[Lotus]

This subject is very interesting, but I'm confused.
I hope some one can set me straight on this because I'm planning to make a change in my program next week (currently PM + Spearmint) by adding Pygeum (an anti-5 alpha reductase).

Pygeum - pygeum extract is the most popular treatment for BPH. When compared with saw palmetto in a clinical trial, it was demonstrated that saw palmetto produced greater reduction of symptoms and was better tolerated. However, PAE may have greater effects on prostate secretion. By improving an underlying problem, PAE may improve sexual function. Pygeum clinical trials (mostly European) are encouraging, but more research is needed in the US.

Pygeum contains several compounds, including anti-inflammatories and enzymes that decrease testosterone, and follicle-stimulating hormones. Studies (see References) report that the positive effects of pygeum on the human body include normalization of glandular activity, increase in prostatic secretions and an increase in estrogen and antiestrogen. Pygeum has not been shown to reduce the size of the prostate gland or reverse the process of BPH. It is also not clear how pygeum compares to prescription medicines currently on the market.
Great article- don't knock it-
Read more: http://www.ehow.com/about_5105750_pygeum...z2ruFbhaxp

Search 5-ar and you'll get so much on hair-loss check this one out-

Estrogen taken oraly has been shown to completely reverse male pattern baldness in transgender patients. However estrogen competes with and shuts down the male hormone Testosterone and causes feminization including breast growth and female pattern fat deposits.
http://www.follacure.com/t/estrogenB
http://www.hairlosstalk.com/interact/sho...gen-in-Men

However, pygeum does not appear to reduce the size of the prostate gland or reverse the process of BPH. It is unclear how pygeum compares to the effectiveness or safety of other medical therapies, such as prescription drugs (e.g. alpha-adrenergic blockers or 5-alpha reductase inhibitors), surgical approaches, or other herbs/supplements such as saw palmetto. There is ongoing study in this area. Patients with urinary symptoms or BPH should speak with their healthcare professional about the various available treatment options.[1]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pygeum_(herbal_remedy)


Clara- I haven't taken Pygeum, so I can't give first hand experience other than what I found. But!, I like what It can do, I'm sure you've read all the side-effects and interactions and know the risks.


Btw, this was supposed to go with the first post:

Conversion of Testosterone to Estradiol and Dihydrotestosterone
http://thinksteroids.com/forum/mens-heal...94117.html

[GoneGirl]

Thank you, Lotus. Just what I needed. I'm going to take some time to read everything you've referenced here.

Hugs,

Clara

[myboobs]

at this rate i will have to change my program completely

seems everything i am taking is useless !!

on the other hand i defo got some boobie growth