[Lotus]

Also, to what extend is an aromatase promoting herb like White Peony interfering with PM? The theory is that estradiol and miroestrol compete for the same estrogen receptors in breast tissue. The more powerful estradiol, increases the risk of developing a malignant tumor in the breast. Miroestrol (the estrogen mimic in PM) is weaker, and by displacing estradiol, lowers the risk of cancer of the breast. Doesn't that mean that we should be favoring PM for NBE over pro-aromatase herbs like WP?

Only PM has the unique phytoestrogen (plant estrogen), miroestrol. Miroestrol is bio-similar to estriol, an estrogen (female hormone) that is much weaker than the body’s predominant estrogen, 17ß- estradiol. Miroestrol occupies the estrogen receptors more safely. If the estrogen level is high, miroestrol will compete with receptors weakening the effect of the hormones. If the estrogen level is low, miroestrol will exert its estrogenic effect of potentiation. PM also contains several other phytoestrogens including genistein, daidzein, hydroxymiroestrol and isomiroestrol.

http://www.drpasswater.com/nutrition_lib...n_2(1).htm


Peony Root - Estrogenic, blocks 5ar and pro-aromatase (Aromatase - Converts testosterone to estrogens)

My opinion dear Clara is that peony will take that excess T and works to convert it into E, taking it with PM would enhance the capabilities. Abi's goal was to saturate the receptors, my goal as well, which in my opinion has worked. I also think PABA is also a great addition, PABA - Decreases breakdown of estrogen in your body so you have more free estrogen.

But you girls stick to your current programs, mine is a bit more radical and when you and others are ready I'd be happy to offer any assistance I can. I haven't offered much of my theory because it's just that, my theory!. If you girls would like to talk more theory instead research I'd be tickled, just let me know. I've tried to offer as much research as I can find on the things I've posted. Yes it's overwhelming, but if we're not committed 100% to this then it's a waist of time and money, imo. We need all the info we can find and then make an informed decision.

In more technical terms:

Conversion of blood androgens to estrogens in normal adult men and women:

The conversion ratio (ratio of concentrations of radioactivity of free product steroid [χ-PRO] and free precursor steroid [χ-PRE], both corrected for recoveries, after an infusion of radioactive precursor steroid) for androstenedione (precursor) to estrone (product) is 0.013 in males and 0.007 in females, and the conversion ratio for testosterone (precursor) to estradiol (product) is 0.0018 in males and 0.005 in females. The transfer constant, [ρ]BBAE1, for androstenedione conversion to estrone ([ρ]BBAE1 = per cent of infused androstenedione, precursor, converted to estrone, product, when infusion and measurement are both in blood) is 1.35% in males and 0.74% in females, and the transfer constant, [ρ]BBTE2, for testosterone conversion to estradiol is 0.39% in males and 0.15% in females
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC297476/

[Lotus]

Thank you Clara for keeping me busy today!, to shut me up is to make me research!!

[Lotus]

at this rate i will have to change my program completely

seems everything i am taking is useless !!

on the other hand i defo got some boobie growth

No no,
Your program is solid, I like it!

[myboobs]

Thanks HIGH MISTRESS
The gods of tehnicals have spoken
We are not worthy :p

[GoneGirl]

Yes, thank you, Mistress, for taking the time to clear these matters up for me. I do think it becomes more and more important to converge on an optimal program as one's growth approaches its maximum. It seems that after 2 years of NBE it becomes extremely important. Not that newbies can't benefit as well, but given the uniqueness of each person's chemistry, I still think it's good for newbies to start simple. Do you agree?

Clara

[Lotus]

I still think it's good for newbies to start simple. Do you agree?

I agree 100%, YMMV

There's no reason to complicate things early on in a program. Basically, your body is adjusting to having the mimicking effects of E. So if that's not crazy enough your behavior starts changing in addition. So wait till you get some experience before you start the self experimenting and making common mistakes as most of us have.

[GoneGirl]

Okay, I think I understand a little more about how these sex hormones work. Let me summarize. (My original questions in italics)

Aromatase is an enzyme that is needed to convert testosterone to estrogen in males. Which T is converted to which E? Is it free T that is converted to estradiol, or DHT?

Short answer:
Free testosterone is converted to estradiol by aromatase. DHT cannot be converted to estrogen.

Long answer:
Androstenedione is a hormone produced in the adrenal glands and the gonads (testes and ovaries) as an intermediate step in the production of testosterone and the estrogens estrone and estradiol. Aromatase is an enzyme that is needed to synthesize androgens into estrogens. Specifically, aromatase transforms testosterone to estradiol. It also converts androstenedione to estrone which can, in turn, be converted to estradiol.

To what extend are either Spearmint (which is anti-free T) or Pygeum (which is anti-DHT) going to complete with WP (a pro-aromatase herb whose purpose is to convert T to E)?

Short answer:
They do not compete. Each contributes to increasing one's estrogen and decreasing one's androgen levels.

Long answer:
Spearmint helps to lower testosterone by binding it to proteins SHBG and albumin. White Peony helps to raise estradiol by increasing the enzyme aromatase which converts testosterone to estradiol. Pygeum helps to lower DHT by inhibiting the production of 5 alpha reductase which is needed to convert testosterone to DHT.

Also, to what extend is an aromatase promoting herb like White Peony interfering with PM? The theory is that estradiol and miroestrol compete for the same estrogen receptors in breast tissue. The more powerful estradiol, increases the risk of developing a malignant tumor in the breast. Miroestrol (the estrogen mimic in PM) is weaker, and by displacing estradiol, lowers the risk of cancer of the breast. Doesn't that mean that we should be favoring PM for NBE over pro-aromatase herbs like WP?

Short Answer:
Yes, PM will have less effect as estradiol levels rise, but PM's will still provide benefits.

Long Answer:
Miroestrol's effect is limited primarily to estrogen receptors in breast tissue. Miroestrol will socket with E-receptors in the breasts to enable tissue growth. It's effects are largely unaffected by the presence of DHT which blocks the effects of estradiol. Even when estradiol levels are high, and DHT levels are low, miroestrol is valuable because it will lock up estrogen receptors in breast tissue, displacing estradiol, and reduce the risk of breast cancer.

---------------------
What I take away from all this is that for a male just starting out with NBE, taking a daily dose of PM alone with stimulate breast tissue growth when miroestrol locks on to estrogen receptors in the breasts. Testosterone and DHT levels will typical be reduced as the body's feedback mechanisms try to maintain sex hormone balance. The effect is weak, though. One should not experience the kind of powerful effects from synthetic HRT, so breast growth will be relatively slow.

As the breasts develop, the effectiveness of PM alone is reduced. Breast growth will slow or stall. The addition of anti-androgen supplements can accelerate or restart growth. The choice of an anti-androgen will depend on the effects you want to achieve/avoid as follows:

Testosterone levels determine a man's sex drive, physical features (e.g., muscle mass), and his mood/energy level. Spearmint will lock up testosterone in SHBG or albumin making it unavailable. As a consequence, one's DHT level is also lowered, as there is less testosterone to convert to DHT. Be warned that abnormally low testosterone levels can cause health problems like poor bone density and increased risk of cardiac arrest.

DHT levels determine a man's secondary sex characteristics such as body hair, and protects the body from the feminizing effects of estradiol. Therefore, reducing DHT levels is helpful in breast growth, reducing body hair, and halting, even reversing, male pattern baldness. Pygeum basically inhibits the action of 5-alpha reductase to produce DHT from testosterone. It also reduces the number of sites where the DHT can attach (e.g., hair follicles). Unlike Saw Palmetto, Pygeum does not cause a reduction in prostate size.

White Peony Root will increase the conversion of testosterone to estradiol by increasing the amount (or effectiveness?) of the aromatase enzyme. Estadiol is a strong hormone which in larger amounts should cause additional breast growth and other femininizing effects. If Spearmint has already lowered testosterone, the effectiveness of WPR may be diminished.

Please correct me if I have stated anything which is blatantly false

Follow up question

If the effect of using these anti-antrogens is to lower my testosterone level significantly, will the corresponding increase in estradiol cancel out known health risks, like loss of bone density and increased risk of cardiac arrest?

I appreciate any comments, additions or corrections to this summary.

Clara Kay

[Lotus]

Clara, I think I'm I love!

DHT -is our Breast enemy, details to follow!

[GoneGirl]

Clara, I think I'm I love!

DHT -is our Breast enemy, details to follow!

I love you, too, Lotus. I can't imagine wrapping my mind around this complex subject without your help.

Clara

[Lotus]

How many have thought that facial hair was a sign of too much Testosterone?.....guilty! (me), so I'd suppress more and more to the point it was non-exist. not good!

I know that DHT (dihydrotestosterone) comes after testosterone (T) is catalyzed by 5-alpha-reductase. Both T and DHT has SIMILAR receptor, but DHT fits more properly to the receptor rather than T, thus it is said that DHT is "activated" T.

However, from their function, it is stated that they have specific targets, for instance that DHT mainly affects on skin and genital (externa), while T mainly affects in spermatogenesis, spermatozoa maturation/capasitation, responsible in the appearance of secondary sex characteristics (virilisation) and anabolic effects.

http://www.biology-online.org/biology-fo...t8648.html

DHT should be our enemy for breast growth-
How does DHT protect against estrogen? There are at least three ways that this likely occurs. First of all, DHT directly inhibits estrogens activity on tissues. It either does this by acting as a competitive antagonist to the estrogen receptor or by decreasing estrogen-induced RNA transcription at a point subsequent to estrogen receptor binding.

See the paragraph-Anti-Estrogen effects of DHT
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/reform8.htm


Now let's talk about this as it relates:

SHBG? Could someone please explain what that is and what you are talking about in more depth, I can sort of figure it out but I think I am having the same problem but don't understand it.

SHBG is sex hormone binding globulin. It's primary purpose is to make excessive sex hormones inert, and it's order of preference is free testosterone, dihydrotestosterone, estradiol, estriol, estrone. Doesn't even touch progestins. Instead your body generally attempts to break excess progesterone down into other hormones, depending on what the balance is... If you introduce excessive progestins to your body, which do NOT break down, well, that's part of why progestins are nasty buggers.

What they WERE talking about was really quite fascinating science. You do realize you necroposted to a nigh two year old thread, right?

Hi mochaccino,

If your programs depends on aromatase to make estrogens from testosterone, lowering SHBG is useful. SHBG binds free testosterone, which makes it inaccessible for aromatase.

SHBG binds DHT too, so you'll break out if SHBG becomes too low. Use flax to increase SHBG. Eve M used about equal amounts of flax and oats.

Testosterone has two metabolites that pose potential problems for aging males and also for bodybuilders and athletes. One is estradiol (testosterone is converted to estradiol by the enzyme aromatase) and the other is dihydrotestosterone (DHT) (testosterone is converted to DHT by the enzyme 5-alpha reductase). As men age, there is a dramatic decrease in testosterone production, but without a corresponding decrease in the production of estradiol and DHT. Even though testosterone levels have plummeted, the aromatization of testosterone to estradiol is maintained, or even accelerated, and more testosterone is also being aromatized in fatty tissues. This creates excess levels of estradiol and, as a consequence, a blood level ratio of testosterone to estradiol that continues to decline, tipping the scale in balance of an estradiol-dominant environment.


Next post we'll try to tie all this into a nice bow for ya!