[moniker]

Firstly, does anybody have any experience with this or know of any thorough resources?

I'd like to make tinctures of all the various things I want to try since it greatly increases their efficacy. I was doing some research- can't find the supporting documents at the moment, but when consuming estradiol orally, 90% of it gets excreted via liver metabolism and that which remains is predominately converted into estrone. Sublingual absorption and injection, however, puts the goodies straight into the bloodstream.

I'm not sure how it works with PM, since it's different stuff and, while it can bind to estrogen receptors, we probably don't have the enzymes to metabolize it, so it probably doesn't get downgraded (though much will be lost in the liver or denatured through the digestive process).

The methodologies governing the production of tinctures and essential oils is VAST, and different techniques are going to work better for extracting different chemicals. In general, it looks like alcohol absorbs steroids (phyosterols) the best, but I don't really have a clue. Could an essential oil be even more potent? What about undiluted vinegar? Can steroids even be considered alkaloids or acidic?


Some food for thought:
Cow's butter, for example, has pure estradiol, but also a much greater amount of estrone-- if it would be possible to selectively extract one, that would be awesome (though INCREDIBLY unlikely). I think you'll either get all fat soluble steroids or none at all- but I don't really know. Estradiol is more acidic than estrone, due to the hydroxyl group, but I can't imagine it making much of a difference without a very very very particular extracting technique. That said, I don't think you can even get the estradiol in a concentrated manner without all of the other fatty acids. I was reading that they use nano-tubes to press estradiol out of butter, but that is probably outside of the scope of a homebrewer...

Edit: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3160986 - Though there may be a way to promote the conversion of estrone to estradiol despite the tendency to go the other way around... though I wouldn't consider this a serious avenue to take.

[Pansy-Mae]

can't find the supporting documents at the moment, but when consuming estradiol orally, 90% of it gets excreted via liver metabolism and that which remains is predominately converted into estrone. Sublingual absorption and injection, however, puts the goodies straight into the bloodstream.

I'm not sure how it works with PM, since it's different stuff and, while it can bind to estrogen receptors, we probably don't have the enzymes to metabolize it, so it probably doesn't get downgraded (though much will be lost in the liver or denatured through the digestive process).

Yes, the liver metabolism of estradiol is well known.

However you are right that PM is different and in fact it works BETTER for being processed by the liver. PM contains miroestrol which the liver converts to de-oxymiroestrol which is significantly more effective.

There is a scientific paper on this which I've read but also can't find atm.

However on the subject of making tinctures, why bother buying a powder and going through all the hassle of extracting? Why not just buy the liquid extract from the same company that you would buy the powder from? Their controlled lab extraction is going to be far more effective than your kitchen ( unless you do have lab facilities, in which case I apologise!)

[flamesabers]

There is a scientific paper on this which I've read but also can't find atm.

I think Byrony has posted a link or two to scientific papers on this matter, but I can't remember the exact thread.

[moniker]

However you are right that PM is different and in fact it works BETTER for being processed by the liver. PM contains miroestrol which the liver converts to de-oxymiroestrol which is significantly more effective.

There is a scientific paper on this which I've read but also can't find atm.

Ahh, that is very comforting news!

However on the subject of making tinctures, why bother buying a powder and going through all the hassle of extracting? Why not just buy the liquid extract from the same company that you would buy the powder from? Their controlled lab extraction is going to be far more effective than your kitchen ( unless you do have lab facilities, in which case I apologise!)

Price.

The determining factor in the price of any herbal remedy is the total amount of material used to produce it. The up-sell on tinctures, however, is ridiculous. Ainterol's PM extract is comparable, in total number of doses, to the dried capsules, but the amount of raw material used to make that tincture isn't comparable.

Tincturing techniques, fortunately, aren't very advanced. Either heat or pressure (or both) can be used to speed up the process or minimize the amount of alcohol needed or to increase the total amount extracted. In most cases, a regular soak for a few weeks is fine.

While you are unlikely to acquire as potent an extract as one that goes through a heavy refinement process, you will be able to increase the efficacy of the powder that you would be getting anyways- it's also much cheaper when not in the caps, which kind of all works out. It makes sense to me anyways...

I think that, because of the beneficial liver function in the role of PM expression, that a combination of sublingual and oral doses may be optimal. It's too hard to tell. I just know that making a tincture of the bulk powder is a lot cheaper than buying their extract and stronger than buying their capsules, while providing relatively more doses.

[chrishoney]

In my opinion, you're missing a few important points. Sublingual administration does NOT avoid metabolism by the liver. It only avoids the dreaded "first pass" through the hepatic portal vein system. I have posted on this misconception before.

Also, the liver most certainly DOES have the enzymes to clear the key ingredients of PM from the system, or all of us using it would gradually accumulate so much that we would find an LD-50 the hard way (which in case you are wondering, has not been determined using the usual animal models.) The "first pass" phobia that most MtF transexual women have is from a bygone era when weak and dangerous forms of estrogen HRT were all that was available to help them transition. Avoiding the first pass with PM may actually decrease it's effectiveness as Pansy-Mae pointed out.

For me, buying bulk PM and a US$10 capsule filler is WAY easier and cheaper than messing around with creating tinctures, but to each his own.