Hello all, 

I have decided to post, I have become quite obsessed with NBE. I am 30 years old, no one in my life knows about how I feel and I likely won't tell anyone for now. I figure that I want to grow until it becomes a hassle, as a way of testing the waters... I would like to thank everyone who has contributed (Lotus' posts have been incredibly informative for me.) I am obviously flying under the radar, I am in a long term committed relationship 10+ years, I want this to continue. My partner does not know that I am likely Trans... However she seems fluid and likely won't mind. We will see.

One additional problem I am dealing with (mostly related to product availability and having to be secretive, this makes it harder to spend money+ ordering things is risky) I have been having problems getting PM, Hops, or White Peony. 

Here is what I have for a program top to bottom:

AM:

Fenugreek: 610 mg x2
Evening Primrose Oil 1000 mg x2
Red Clover 250 mg (crude equivalent 1:4, 1 ml alcohol tincture taken sublingually until I can't stand it and have to wash it down with water.)
Red Reishi 1000 mg
Green Tea Extract 300 mg
MSM 1000 mg
Vit D 1000 IU
Vit C 500 mg

I am addicted to caffeine unfortunately and drink a preworkout energy drink in the morning:

creatine 5 g
caffeine 180 mgs 
raw aloe juice  1 cup 
drink with 1.5 litres of water.

PM:

Fenugreek: 610 mg x2
Evening Primrose Oil 1000 mg x2
Red Clover 250 mg 
Red Reishi 1000 mg
Green Tea Extract 300 mg
MSM 1000 mg
Vit D 1000 IU
Vit C 500 mg

Another preworkout drink 5 mgs of creatine and 180 mgs of caffeine plus aloe juice.


NIGHT:

Fenugreek: 610 mg x2
Evening Primrose Oil 1000 mg x2
Red Clover 250 mg 
Red Reishi 1000 mg
MSM 1000 mg
Vit D 1000 IU
Vit C 500 mg


I workout every second day in my home gym and only focus on feminization exercises such as hip trust, squats, romanian deadlift, clamshells with resistance band for glute development.

On these days I drink a post workout shake:

Whey Protein 25 g
Raw Red Maca 5 g
10 g Collagen Peptides
3.5% Milk 2.5 cups 

I tried to focus on a lot of aromatase as the Fenugreek seems to really boost my hormones and I don't have access to some of the big Phytoestrogens so why waste the Testosterone. I am curious if I would have better results omitting the red clover as they likely bind up receptors that could be filled by aromatized endogenous hormones? I am new to the red clover and wonder how strongly estrogenic it will be compared to the aromatized estradiol. I wish I could get some white peony...

I have a large white peony plant, and an abundance of hops growing on a vine in my backyard that I am planning to propagate and utilize once the snow melts. However this won't help me in the short term. I have decided to approach this in cycles of about a month or two and will likely take at least a week off between cycles to assess what is working.

I figure that my DHT will be crushed with the combo of reishi, GTE. I figure the GTE will likely counter some of the fat development as it is supposedly a weight loss supp, I figure that I can likely offset that with more food. Trying to eat clean. Lots of chicken As it is spring and I will likely be swimming in public over this summer shirtless, I don't mind if this season is primarily focused on glandular development. The fenugreek feels like it has really started my budding off strongly, my nipples are twice the size as when I started messing around with herbs. I have shed all of my male stomach fat and have noticed subcutaneous padding and can definitely pinch some small handfuls of... boob lol. Also my eyelashes and general shape of my eyes seems more feminine. So far downstairs is functioning but I have felt a slight libido decrease with the addition of the GTE.

I am 5'11'' and about 178lbs. I want to be closer to 165 by the end of the summer before pushing for some serious female fat distribution. Will be likely looking to source some PM for next fall when sweaters are appropriate again. 

I also do about 10 mins of massage in the shower when I wake up and again before going to bed.

I would really love to hear what everyone has to add/subtract or recommend. I have really enjoyed learning from you all and experimenting!

Cheers,

Deadname.

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Hi Deadname,

I believe you have taken 1000 micrograms (mcg or ug) of Vitamin D! Even then your daily amount (3000 umicrograms) is much over safe limit, which is, depending on the nutritional expert or doctor you ask, 100-250 micrograms a day. The amount you wrote here, 3000 milligrams/day, would have taken you pretty fast to hospital. Vitamin D is very necessary, but too much is too much.

Huge amounts of vitamin D you seem to be taking can really mess up your body over time. Also, there's no need to divide that dose to two or three times/day because it isn't eliminated very fast at all. Some say you can take 7 x daily dose once a week and the effect will be roughly same as daily taking it, because body stores it. That storage phenomena is also why huge overdoses cause problems with delay.

Hugs,

Teddy

I would like to thank everyone who has contributed (Lotus' posts have been incredibly informative for me.)

You're welcome, I'm glad you found the information helpful. 

I believe you have taken 1000 micrograms (mcg or ug) of Vitamin D! Even then your daily amount (3000 micrograms) is much over safe limit, which is, depending on the nutritional expert or doctor you ask, 100-250 micrograms a day. The amount you wrote here, 3000 milligrams/day, would have taken you pretty fast to hospital. Vitamin D is very necessary, but too much is too much.

Pretty sure Deadname meant to input Vitamin D3 @ 1,000 IU instead of 1,000 mg.

Continuing the research, there's a strategy in using vitamin D3 and calcium (and actual relatable science) together in my X-thread program, along with MSM. Vitamin D3 actually increases IGF-1, so as we might worry about not getting enough IGF-1 for breast growth, taking 5,000iu to 7,000iu of vitamin D3 per day helps to increase IGF1. Which is perfectly safe limits to take within these amounts.

Vitamin D increases circulating IGF1 in adults: potential implication for the treatment of GH deficiency
Pietro Ameri et al. Eur J Endocrinol. 2013
Abstract

Objectives: Previous studies suggested that vitamin D modulates circulating IGF1. We investigated this effect in adults and its clinical relevance in the management of GH deficiency (GHD).

Design and methods: IGF1 levels were prospectively measured before and after 12 weeks of treatment with oral vitamin D3 (5000 or 7000 IU/week) vs no intervention in 39 subjects 61.9±7.9 years old. The frequency of IGF1 values ≥50th age- and sex-specific percentile in relation to vitamin D status, as determined by the concentration of 25-hydroxyvitamin D (25(OH)D), was retrospectively assessed in 69 GHD patients (57.4±16.6 years) on stable hormone replacement and with 25(OH)D and IGF1 concurrently measured.

Results: Treatment with 5000 and 7000 IU vitamin D3/week significantly raised 25(OH)D by 12.7±8.4 and 13.1±6.5 ng/ml respectively (both P<0.001 vs baseline). In the 7000 IU group, IGF1 levels also significantly increased by 31.3±36.7 ng/ml (P=0.01). Neither 25(OH)D nor IGF1 significantly varied in controls. IGF1 was ≥50th percentile more frequently in GHD patients with 25(OH)D levels ≥15 than <15 ng/ml(65.9 vs 40.0%, P<0.05). Logistic regression with adjustment for recombinant human GH (rhGH) dose, vitamin D supplements, gender, use of thyroid hormones, corticosteroids or estrogen/testosterone, and season revealed a significant positive association between ≥15 ng/ml 25(OH)D and IGF 1 ≥50th percentile (OR 4.4, 95% CI 1.0-18.8, P<0.05). A significant negative correlation between 25(OH)D concentrations and rhGH dose was found after correcting for age and IGF1 (β -0.042, P<0.01), but not after further adjusting for sex, thyroid, adrenal or gonadal replacement, and season (β -0.037, P=0.06).

Conclusions: Vitamin D increases circulating IGF1 in adults. As a result, a better vitamin D status may ease the achievement of normal IGF1 values in GHD.

Vitamin D regulates IGF1 concentrations in the liver, the main source of circulating IGF1
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24005315/

[unnecessary quoting removed]

Hi Deadname,

I believe you have taken 1000 micrograms (mcg or ug) of Vitamin D! Even then your daily amount (3000 umicrograms) is much over safe limit, which is, depending on the nutritional expert or doctor you ask, 100-250 micrograms a day. The amount you wrote here, 3000 milligrams/day, would have taken you pretty fast to hospital. Vitamin D is very necessary, but too much is too much.

Huge amounts of vitamin D you seem to be taking can really mess up your body over time. Also, there's no need to divide that dose to two or three times/day because it isn't eliminated very fast at all. Some say you can take 7 x daily dose once a week and the effect will be roughly same as daily taking it, because body stores it. That storage phenomena is also why huge overdoses cause problems with delay.

Hugs,

Teddy

Hello Teddy,

Thanks very much for the input. I absolutely meant micrograms, I will edit my first post to make sure there is no confusion. Do we think that a once a day dose of 3,000 mcg would be more beneficial than a 3x a day approach? If so I'd be interesting in trying it out. Morning, I'd assume to simulate getting morning sun? I am living in Canada we have a hard time with vit d in general. I am using vit d3 in gel capsules if that provides further context.

Regards, 

Deadname

I would like to thank everyone who has contributed (Lotus' posts have been incredibly informative for me.)

You're welcome, I'm glad you found the information helpful. 

I believe you have taken 1000 micrograms (mcg or ug) of Vitamin D! Even then your daily amount (3000 micrograms) is much over safe limit, which is, depending on the nutritional expert or doctor you ask, 100-250 micrograms a day. The amount you wrote here, 3000 milligrams/day, would have taken you pretty fast to hospital. Vitamin D is very necessary, but too much is too much.

Pretty sure Deadname meant to input Vitamin D3 @ 1,000 IU instead of 1,000 mg.

Continuing the research, there's a strategy in using vitamin D3 and calcium (and actual relatable science) together in my X-thread program, along with MSM. Vitamin D3 actually increases IGF-1, so as we might worry about not getting enough IGF-1 for breast growth, taking 5,000iu to 7,000iu of vitamin D3 per day helps to increase IGF1. Which is perfectly safe limits to take within these amounts.

Vitamin D increases circulating IGF1 in adults: potential implication for the treatment of GH deficiency
Pietro Ameri et al. Eur J Endocrinol. 2013
Abstract

Objectives: Previous studies suggested that vitamin D modulates circulating IGF1. We investigated this effect in adults and its clinical relevance in the management of GH deficiency (GHD).

Design and methods: IGF1 levels were prospectively measured before and after 12 weeks of treatment with oral vitamin D3 (5000 or 7000 IU/week) vs no intervention in 39 subjects 61.9±7.9 years old. The frequency of IGF1 values ≥50th age- and sex-specific percentile in relation to vitamin D status, as determined by the concentration of 25-hydroxyvitamin D (25(OH)D), was retrospectively assessed in 69 GHD patients (57.4±16.6 years) on stable hormone replacement and with 25(OH)D and IGF1 concurrently measured.

Results: Treatment with 5000 and 7000 IU vitamin D3/week significantly raised 25(OH)D by 12.7±8.4 and 13.1±6.5 ng/ml respectively (both P<0.001 vs baseline). In the 7000 IU group, IGF1 levels also significantly increased by 31.3±36.7 ng/ml (P=0.01). Neither 25(OH)D nor IGF1 significantly varied in controls. IGF1 was ≥50th percentile more frequently in GHD patients with 25(OH)D levels ≥15 than <15 ng/ml(65.9 vs 40.0%, P<0.05). Logistic regression with adjustment for recombinant human GH (rhGH) dose, vitamin D supplements, gender, use of thyroid hormones, corticosteroids or estrogen/testosterone, and season revealed a significant positive association between ≥15 ng/ml 25(OH)D and IGF 1 ≥50th percentile (OR 4.4, 95% CI 1.0-18.8, P<0.05). A significant negative correlation between 25(OH)D concentrations and rhGH dose was found after correcting for age and IGF1 (β -0.042, P<0.01), but not after further adjusting for sex, thyroid, adrenal or gonadal replacement, and season (β -0.037, P=0.06).

Conclusions: Vitamin D increases circulating IGF1 in adults. As a result, a better vitamin D status may ease the achievement of normal IGF1 values in GHD.

Vitamin D regulates IGF1 concentrations in the liver, the main source of circulating IGF1
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24005315/

Your program X thread is what inspired the increase in vit d3 as well as a bit of pubmed digging. I have observed no ill side effects with the level of vit d3. I have a huge bottle of vit d and could increase it if we think it may provide further benefit.

Lotus, I am curious if you think the red clover would more weakly bind to the ERa receptors and block some of my aromatase efforts? I thought it was one of the stronger options but I haven't run it long enough yet to really say.

I may try another cycle without the red clover if we think my current program has been able to increase my endogenous estradiol significantly to test your aromatase oriented strategy. I might get some bloodwork soon however it seems like the Canadian medical system is less willing to give me extra hormone tests unless I have a good reason. I may go in and tell them I am suffering from low libido to get them to run some extra panels   

Thanks for all the feedback. 

Regards,

Deadname

[unnecessary quoting removed]

Hi Deadname,

I believe you have taken 1000 micrograms (mcg or ug) of Vitamin D! Even then your daily amount (3000 umicrograms) is much over safe limit, which is, depending on the nutritional expert or doctor you ask, 100-250 micrograms a day. The amount you wrote here, 3000 milligrams/day, would have taken you pretty fast to hospital. Vitamin D is very necessary, but too much is too much.

Huge amounts of vitamin D you seem to be taking can really mess up your body over time. Also, there's no need to divide that dose to two or three times/day because it isn't eliminated very fast at all. Some say you can take 7 x daily dose once a week and the effect will be roughly same as daily taking it, because body stores it. That storage phenomena is also why huge overdoses cause problems with delay.

Hugs,

Teddy

Hello Teddy,

Thanks very much for the input. I absolutely meant micrograms, I will edit my first post to make sure there is no confusion. Do we think that a once a day dose of 3,000 mcg would be more beneficial than a 3x a day approach? If so I'd be interesting in trying it out. Morning, I'd assume to simulate getting morning sun? I am living in Canada we have a hard time with vit d in general. I am using vit d3 in gel capsules if that provides further context.

Regards, 

Deadname

Hi Deadname,

I think you should not take too much D-vitamin. It accumulates to body. According to Mayo clinics, 60 000 IU = 1500 mcg has caused poisoning in several months. You should get all possible advantages from sensible doses and  then not taking chances of getting for example kidney stones which can be very painful. 

Personally I wouldn't exceed 250 mcg or 10 000 IU a day. Please check also if your vitamin's strength is given in mcg or IU. they differ by a factor of 40. That's a huge difference in the numerical value!

-Teddy

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Oh my goodness, 

Can we start this all again lol it's IUs!!!!

So sorry.

Deadname

[unnecessary quoting removed]
















No problem, just some confusion in measuring units .
I was really a bit worried about your health! For D-vitamin 100 micro-grams is 4000 IU. So you are definitely on safe side with the amount you are taking. Just remeber not increase it too much but remember the recognized safe limit. (Another matter: Each vitamin has its own conversion factor between micro/milli-grams and IUs. Be aware of that, as some producers use the weight units, others IU units. Conversion factor 40 is only for vitamin D3)

-Teddy

Okay a bit of an update and a new plan for "bulking season".

I spend the summer following something like this:

AM:

Hops 350 mg
Red Reishi 
Green Tea Extract 300 mg
MSM 1000 mg
Vit D 1000 IU
Vit C 500 mg

I am addicted to caffeine unfortunately and drink a preworkout energy drink in the morning:

caffeine 180 mgs 
5 mg collagen peptides.
drink with 1.5 litres of water.

PM:


Hops 350 mg
Red Reishi 
Green Tea Extract 300 mg
MSM 1000 mg
Vit D 1000 IU
Vit C 500 mg



NIGHT:

Hops 350 mg
down with water.)
Red Reishi
Green Tea Extract 300 mg
MSM 1000 mg
Vit D 1000 IU
Vit C 500 mg

I tried to only eat salads for lunch and generally tried to reduce calories my weight has come down maybe like 5 or 6 pounds but my body composition has been slowly changing definitely have more subcutaneous fat and the budding has definitely increased feeling some side branching possibly. 


When I ran out of Hops I did about a month of the same program with red clover instead of the hops and finally was able to get a hold of some white peony which I feel really helped out and was almost a more perceptible difference maker than Hops.

Now I have gotten some PM...

I want to make a new program based around the fact that I have 2 Bottles of 500 mg capsules at 120 units per.

I am thinking of basing a winter program on 1000 mg of PM per day 

I am going to add 

PM - PhytoEstrogen
White peony - Aromatase
Grean Tea Extract - Aromatase + 5 Alpha Reductase downregulation.
Red Reishi - 5 Alpha Reductase downregulation.
Vitamin D - Boosting IGF 1
MSM - Collagen production
Calcium 
Vitamin C
collagen peptides

I want to add some Omega 3 and maybe evening primrose.

My plan is to maximize my growth by eating a calorie surplus, maybe get some "jugs" of whole milk, whey protein. I also do glute exercises to failure every 3rd night. 
Avocado, Walnuts. etc.

I am hoping to then go on a diet in March...

I am afraid and excited to be trying the PM out. This may be my last shot at this as I am at a real cross roads... 

Let me know what you think is missing or could be added to improve my outcomes. I am also trying to figure out dosages and timings. 

Thanks in advance for any feedback.