Hi all,

TL;DR please help me put together a program, there is way too much information on this forum and I can't make heads or tails out of it anymore.

I'm a 29 year old trans woman who can't start on medical transition for personal reasons. When I came out as trans 10 years ago I was super desperate and took some hops and all-in-one vitamines for (cis) women. I also did breast massage twice a day using lavender oil. It helped a little bit, but it took more than a year. I think I still have some tissue of what I grew back then.

Anyway, I never knew there was such a huge community in this (with some lovely timelapses). I have been doing some reseach on all the countless posts and replies, After an hour or two I feel so burned out that I stop understanding what I read.

Personally I don't trust ordering anything from Amazon when it comes to pills, so I'm using Holland and barrett, although I can't order everything on it (they don't have PM for example)

So far I think I have come up with the following:
reishi: 500 mg x 2
red clover: 430 mg x 3
hops: 200 mg x 3
flax seed oil (they ran out of capsules, so I guess oil will have to do): 10 ml x 2 (gonna mix this into my vanilla yogert I think, although it does have a high amount of calories!)

I already take vitamine D3 and I plan on doing breast massages with lavender oil again.

If anyone can help me with putting a plan together I'd highly appreciate it, because this forum is like a maze to me sometimes!

Take your time with it. There's tons of information here on everything... It takes time to absorb it all. I suggest you find some way better source for something estrogen, phyto or the real deal, there are alternatives. From herbs PM is usually the best way to it, then there's bovine ovary which can be amazing, works in a weird way and its hit or miss but that should be easier(?) for you to source I guess?

There are few things you MUST have right or you wont get much body changes, first you have to get your estrogens up somehow, second you have to curb DHT in particular and T in general if you can, without these two, nothing will happen. Then once you get the essentials down, you want something to make it work better, going the growth hormone/growth factor route is one option and a very good one too. Another is boosting prolactin. Latter might or might not help you, as with a lot of this stuff, its more like an art rather than strict science outside of the typical essential stuff which makes it all work.

There will be hit and miss, trial and error when you go into NBE, you can't avoid that. But the most usual, most well known to work combinations of things can be easily found here. Or not as easily if you want to learn why and how of it all. Btw, MSM powder along with vitamin D3 is fantastic combination for the growth hormone stuff and building up connective tissues which a lot of our breasts are made of. Anyway, keep digging, the goodies are all here and not too hard to find.

I can dig into this more and help you troubleshoot stuff, but not at this moment as I'm going to sleep soon. So more later.

@Altsquad,
I can help with a Bovine Ovary plan if you are interested. Looks like you're invested in Plan that will work if you add PM. Just let me know.

The thing I liked about BO, is that it is reported to be a permanent change

keep digging, the goodies are all here and not too hard to find.

I can dig into this more and help you troubleshoot stuff, but not at this moment as I'm going to sleep soon. So more later.

It might be me, but after spending more than 2 hours going through the forum my head almost explodes. I do find them hard to find! I can't spend more than hour reading stuff, because then everything start to blend together and I can't make sense of it anymore (some say that could be one of my many signs of ADD or ADHD  that was never diagnoses). I'm keeping an excel list of what I see people take, and look it up in the big FAQ list to see what it is and does. But honestly, most of it goes over my head.

If you, or anyone else, could help me get started that would be great. Like you said, one thing balances or improves the other, but I have little to no idea if I got that down correctly with the list that I have right now.

Take your time, I don't mind figuring this all out correctly (I overspend my monthly budget anyway, so I need to wait until I get my salary before I can get started on NBE)

A very simple program that will work would be fenugreek (estrogenic) and white peony (anti androgenic - or simply a testosterone suppressant). You can also add either fennel or hops (both estrogenics). I know the conventional advice is not to combine estrogenic herbs (fenugreek + either fennel or hops or red clover) but I'm not convinced it's a bad thing because I've seen people do it with great results.

I've done fenugreek and fennel as well as fenugreek and red clover with saw palmetto (a mild anti androgenic). White peony can be hard to find locally but is readily available online. An alternative to white peony would be red reishi which in the US is easier to find locally.

As far as pueruria mirifica, it works but it is hard on the body. Lots of people have problems with it. Others can tolerate it. Can't hurt to try it but there are alternatives if you have side effects. But it too is hard to find offline. 

Now the tough part. Perseverance. I'm going on 5+ months. I've had results. But it is slow. Some of the best outcomes I've seen are from people who have spent 2-4 years of consistent use of these herbs. Some of the worst outcomes I've seen (IMHO) have been people who take excessive amounts of puereria mirifica. Patience and consistency are key.

Good luck.

Ok so main three routes for what to do with estrogen(ic effects) are purearia mirifica, bovine ovary(if it works for you) and conventional HRT being obviously the best. All others are quite mild but can still work, typically slower and not to the extent the best stuff does. Also HRT is the only real way to have the whole deal, have it "fast" and so on. Bovine ovaries can do absolute magic if you're one of those to whom it works. There's a lot of debate why its like this, seemingly random who benefits, I can give my ideas on why, but that's definitely something to look into. I would advice against going on insanely high doses though, with anything and everything. These things can be overdone badly and end up to ER...

So number one thing is estrogen or an estrogen mimic.

Number two is to curb your testosterone and DHT in particular because that is the boob killer, the feminisation killer, Red Reishi I think is the best natural DHT blocker. But do get something that deals with free testosterone also, T is your number one enemy in this. Keep in mind that this WILL effect your function downstairs.

Then you might want something to boost the effects of the above and with that there's plenty of choice, I advocate for the MSM + vitamin D3 combination because that is proven to work and its easy to get. Then for keeping your HGH going, GABA is the way, also cheap and easy to get and it also elevates prolactin. Which brings me to the last point, do not overlook importance of prolactin on breast growth like most people seem to do. Its easy to boost with supplements and it might help tremendously, also don't worry about lactation, most people don't have easy time making that happen.

You know, I spent nearly a year reading and learning stuff before I jumped on the herbal NBE train because I needed to learn everything and anything about all of it. I still some times find new bits of information here. It is overwhelming, but just take your time and keep digging. Lotus has some amazing threads full of good information diving deep into the details so that's a good start. I have had amazing success on combining conventional HRT with bunch of NBE ideas which I lay out in my thread, most of the time I'm not talking about how and why, but rather about what works and what doesn't. There's a reason why I keep repeating certain things over and over. Then there's Stevenator who has got amazing body changes happen too and you should check it out... And who else is active right now and getting there, tomi66 is doing great on bovine ovary program.... You'll get into it, just take your time.

Ok so main three routes for what to do with estrogen(ic effects) are purearia mirifica, bovine ovary(if it works for you) and conventional HRT being obviously the best. All others are quite mild but can still work, typically slower and not to the extent the best stuff does. Also HRT is the only real way to have the whole deal, have it "fast" and so on. Bovine ovaries can do absolute magic if you're one of those to whom it works. There's a lot of debate why its like this, seemingly random who benefits, I can give my ideas on why, but that's definitely something to look into. I would advice against going on insanely high doses though, with anything and everything. These things can be overdone badly and end up to ER...

So number one thing is estrogen or an estrogen mimic.

Number two is to curb your testosterone and DHT in particular because that is the boob killer, the feminisation killer, Red Reishi I think is the best natural DHT blocker. But do get something that deals with free testosterone also, T is your number one enemy in this. Keep in mind that this WILL effect your function downstairs.

Then you might want something to boost the effects of the above and with that there's plenty of choice, I advocate for the MSM + vitamin D3 combination because that is proven to work and its easy to get. Then for keeping your HGH going, GABA is the way, also cheap and easy to get and it also elevates prolactin. Which brings me to the last point, do not overlook importance of prolactin on breast growth like most people seem to do. Its easy to boost with supplements and it might help tremendously, also don't worry about lactation, most people don't have easy time making that happen.

You know, I spent nearly a year reading and learning stuff before I jumped on the herbal NBE train because I needed to learn everything and anything about all of it. I still some times find new bits of information here. It is overwhelming, but just take your time and keep digging. Lotus has some amazing threads full of good information diving deep into the details so that's a good start. I have had amazing success on combining conventional HRT with bunch of NBE ideas which I lay out in my thread, most of the time I'm not talking about how and why, but rather about what works and what doesn't. There's a reason why I keep repeating certain things over and over. Then there's Stevenator who has got amazing body changes happen too and you should check it out... And who else is active right now and getting there, tomi66 is doing great on bovine ovary program.... You'll get into it, just take your time.

I was, just wondering do you think by adding this Progestron to my program will help me get bigger?

Ok so main three routes for what to do with estrogen(ic effects) are purearia mirifica, bovine ovary(if it works for you) and conventional HRT being obviously the best. All others are quite mild but can still work, typically slower and not to the extent the best stuff does. Also HRT is the only real way to have the whole deal, have it "fast" and so on. Bovine ovaries can do absolute magic if you're one of those to whom it works. There's a lot of debate why its like this, seemingly random who benefits, I can give my ideas on why, but that's definitely something to look into. I would advice against going on insanely high doses though, with anything and everything. These things can be overdone badly and end up to ER...

So number one thing is estrogen or an estrogen mimic.

Number two is to curb your testosterone and DHT in particular because that is the boob killer, the feminisation killer, Red Reishi I think is the best natural DHT blocker. But do get something that deals with free testosterone also, T is your number one enemy in this. Keep in mind that this WILL effect your function downstairs.

Then you might want something to boost the effects of the above and with that there's plenty of choice, I advocate for the MSM + vitamin D3 combination because that is proven to work and its easy to get. Then for keeping your HGH going, GABA is the way, also cheap and easy to get and it also elevates prolactin. Which brings me to the last point, do not overlook importance of prolactin on breast growth like most people seem to do. Its easy to boost with supplements and it might help tremendously, also don't worry about lactation, most people don't have easy time making that happen.

You know, I spent nearly a year reading and learning stuff before I jumped on the herbal NBE train because I needed to learn everything and anything about all of it. I still some times find new bits of information here. It is overwhelming, but just take your time and keep digging. Lotus has some amazing threads full of good information diving deep into the details so that's a good start. I have had amazing success on combining conventional HRT with bunch of NBE ideas which I lay out in my thread, most of the time I'm not talking about how and why, but rather about what works and what doesn't. There's a reason why I keep repeating certain things over and over. Then there's Stevenator who has got amazing body changes happen too and you should check it out... And who else is active right now and getting there, tomi66 is doing great on bovine ovary program.... You'll get into it, just take your time.

Ok, so I can easily obtain the MSM and I already take vitamine D3 Other than that I can find everything at Holland & Barrett, except PM and BO, besides less-than-ideal sources. So I came up with this:

• Red Reishi 500 mg x2 (1000mg per dag)
  
• Red Clover: 430 x 3 (1290 mg per day)
  
• MSM 750 x 3 (2250 mg per dag)
  
• Fennel 250 x 6 (1500 mg per day)
  or
  
• Fenugreek 610 x 5 (3050 mg per day)
  

How does this look? I took the dosage of what Holland & Barrett recommends, but I plan on building up to the full recommended dosage over the span of at least a month to see if I experience any negative effects.

I was, just wondering do you think by adding this Progestron to my program will help me get bigger?

Wait a minute, what does it have in it? The label says "bio identical" and "estrogen", but then its all about bunch of herbs? The point is that the labels on some of these are misleading, the herbs in question might be useful as I noted this one to have I think, but as a topical cream likely in tiny concentrations, its not going to do much. And actual bio identical estrogen is typically estriol or estradiol and those are pharmacy stuff, way better and more potent than herbs alone as those are actual HRT, this cream, I think has a misleading label. It might be useful, but I would rather go for the real stuff instead. (I mean the topical "boob HRT" me and Stevenator and Lotus have been on.)

The point being that if you want a topical stuff which actually works, get the pharmacy stuff, not a combination of thing. Same goes for herbals, combinations be it cream or capsules are usually never potent enough because there isn't enough of each ingredient to make a difference. This is why for example, I'm taking several different ones to boost prolactin rather than one which is a combination of different ones. (I've tried that, not worth the money I think.)

Ok, so I can easily obtain the MSM and I already take vitamine D3 Other than that I can find everything at Holland & Barrett, except PM and BO, besides less-than-ideal sources. So I came up with this:

• Red Reishi 500 mg x2 (1000mg per dag)
  
• Red Clover: 430 x 3 (1290 mg per day)
  
• MSM 750 x 3 (2250 mg per dag)
  
• Fennel 250 x 6 (1500 mg per day)
  or
  
• Fenugreek 610 x 5 (3050 mg per day)
  

How does this look? I took the dosage of what Holland & Barrett recommends, but I plan on building up to the full recommended dosage over the span of at least a month to see if I experience any negative effects.

Reishi should be fine, there was something about its quality... Was it polysaccharides which is marked as a percetage? Higher is better. Red Clover to curd T levels? I'm not sure what exactly it does. MSM looks fine, I'm doing quite a big dose of the stuff, three teaspoons in half glass of water, tastes horrible but its absolutely enough, I'm not sure how mane grams that would be. I'm not sure about fennel, that's one of the things that might boost prolactin, as is FG, some people seem to benefit from FG a lot. Stevenator had a good idea on which kind of fenugreek is the best. I have only had the stinky kind as a raw powder, it was quite horrible so I never got to test it long enough to see what it does.

I think you're all good, except that you should get a good known source to push your estrogen high enough to make a difference. Where are you located btw? In Europe, iHerb is really awesome for getting Swanson BO btw, the only actual source, everything else is scetchy as heck and very expensive. Me and Melissa were in quite a trouble for a long time trying to source the stuff until iHerb started selling it. They ship from the US, but its very quick to Europe, goes through Amsterdam each time and its obvious flight mail as its so quick.