24-06-2011, 11:10 AM
Advice please on ramping up a program
December 19 2007 at 2:06 PM wishfulthinking (Login wishfullthinking)
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I am just ending a cleansing period. I was on a basic program for 5 months and just took two weeks off to clense the system and I am preparaing to start again and I am looking for some advice. I was on a basic program see below. While on it I had some success. Some fat redistribution, some increase in nipple size and sensitivity, and about a 1/2 cup increase but no breast buds. Every time I would start to get some tenderness under the nipples it would hold there for about two days then it seemed to just back off, then return about two week latter. So any ideas to try and push to activating the breast buds. I am open to ideas. Try differnt herb? Increase the amount I'm Takeing? Please any help.
Morning 10 massage with Progesterone cream on breasts two weeks on two weeks off.
Morning 10 massage with soy oil and fenugeek two weeks on two weeks off.
Morning, Afternoon and Evening
2x Capsules 540mg Saw Palmetto
1x Capsule 610mg Fenugeek
1x Capsule 430mg Red Clover
2x Capsules Gaba 750 at night only
Afternoon 1 soy protien shake for added protien with 1/2 tp of licorice root
Author Reply
Louise
(no login) Re: Advice please on ramping up a program December 20 2007, 6:22 PM
I would swap the red clover for soy - both contain similar isoflavones but I've read somewhere not to use fenugreek with red clover but I know you can combine it with soy. Aim for roughly 1000mg daily soy.
Add:
1000mg starflower (borage) oil 1-2x daily
OR/ 1000mg evening primrose oil 1-2x daily
1000mg flax seed oil 1-2x daily
Hops, oats, barley grass - see Eve's program page
Consider adding fennel.
Consider second protein shake and be conscious of protein intake vs. calorie intake / fat intake at every meal. I use milk protein powder from www.myprotein.co.uk it dissoves easily and is totally tasteless, because it is milk-based you can either make a shake or add to hot chocolate, soups or other wet food and it just makes them nice and creamy. For biological females it's good to drink 2 litres of water.
The oils are usually horrible huge caps so I just take a teaspoon of either starflower or evening primrose oil each day which is approx 5000mg. I take ground flax seeds in powdered form (equivalent to 20% oil so I use 5 teaspoons). A good boobie food is porridge because you can use soy milk, oats, a little of the herbs in powdered form, ground flax seed and some fruit in the microwave and it's quite nice and warming.
This is mostly based on Eve's program and the Wonderup ingredients....hope I don't sound too bossy!
Are you doing any massages / suction?
Louise
(no login) Re: Advice please on ramping up a program December 20 2007, 6:25 PM
p.s. it's difficult to determine quantities for a biological male as you are probably bigger and your receptors less likely to respond or will respond more slowly....you may want to try the above for a month or two then consider adding an extra 20% of the herbs to see if that makes any difference. You may also want to try milk thistle to protect your liver (alcohol is supposed to be bad for boobs too) and you may want to get things like your liver and thyroid tested periodically.
Incidentally I definitely got more feelings when I took Wonderup + 1g soy + added hops, barley grass and avena sativa (oat). It's difficult to tell if I actually got growth because I mainly use suction (Brava).
wishfulthinking
(Login wishfullthinking) Thank you Louise January 4 2008, 2:08 AM
Thank you for the advice. I could use some more information. You mentioned replacing the red clover with soy isoflavins. Right now I am using a soy protine drink that contains the same amount of isoflavins as most capsules avialable. Also I am vegitarian and eat a fair amount of Soy protine and Tofu, plus 1cup of soy milk a day would this suffice to replace the red clover. I do massage 2X daily with tea tree oil mixed with a tincture of fenugreek for about 6 to 8 min each time. I am going to add the bourage oil and flax seed so any more ideas. I will give it 2 months and see what happens please be in touch
Louise
(Login Louise1982)
SENIOR MEMBER Sorry it turned into a novel! January 4 2008, 11:50 PM
It's difficult to say in terms of isoflavones (but you sure sound like you get a lot of soy!). Eve didn't use any extracts just powdered herb so I assume her soy was just ground beans - you could post to ask her about this on the main forum (if you don't create a login your post won't show up for a few hours) in which case you're probably having way more than she did. I got the soy bulk powder (10% isoflavones) from www.herbalextractsplus.com as it was the strongest isoflavones I could fins and quite frankly I have been totally rubbish at taking it! I just about manage to get the 6 wonderup tablets down daily but hardly ever remember to take anything else and I've been slacking in terms of drinking lots of water, protein consumption and omega oils - naughty naughty!
I'm veggie too (but not vegan), I couldn't stomach a shake even though soy milk is a lot nicer than normal milk. I eat the Slim Fast meal replacement bars as they contain 15g protein for 200 calories and 6g fat, they're quite nice but not very filling. I was eating an egg just about every day but after about 9 months just don't fancy it any more. I also bought the milk protein powder from www.my-protein.co.uk, it's great, lots of protein, hardly any calories and tastes of nothing. It actually improves hot chocolate and porridge as it has a creaminess to it. I intend to have a better go with herbs when I'm done with suction, it's hard to measure growth and sensation when my boobs are swollen up to an F cup and being pulled about every night by the machine. I don't want to overdo it and desensitise my receptors which can take months - years to fix (not sure that happens to a biological male). There are lots of nice soups and stews you can make that you can put beans (soy or a mixture), lentils and barley in - this kind of wet food (or chilli beans) is good for disguising a bit more protein powder + a bit of tofu if you feel brave. A small amount of tofu can be hidden in pasta sauce if you put it through the food processor.
In terms of massage I think you need to do it for a bit longer (at least 20 mins per day ideally 2x20) - see Tigerlily's program and Fenshui's program, you might also want to read my GY post near the top of the massage forum.
Have a look at the posts about green papaya (Fullness has had vest success with it) on the main page, it seems to help the digestive system and make the body use protein better.
You may also want to try a body builders balanced amino acid supplement (but not the cherry flavour liquid - it's disgusting!).
Be careful you're not getting too much soy or have a thyroid test (at least look up the symptoms of hypothyroisim so you can watch out). Soy can also lower body temperature which apparently is bad for boobs - you can bring it back up with L-tyrosine + kelp.
A small amount say 300mg of cayenne daily is good for the circulation and makes the other herbs work better.
Davilee
(Login Davata) Hey Wishful'.... January 13 2008, 5:44 AM
....Hey!...I wouldn't stop the Red clover at all...it contains several isoflavones that arent found in other herbs.
I would not take Borage oil, as I have been doing more study on it and it causes testosterone boosts in males.....
Chemically it is a adrenal gland tonic and an overall gland/hormone balancer
Sooo,its not right for males to take for breast development,it will do just the opposite than what you want...unless you want to have your testosterone boosted.
For women its great,as it just helps their own system produce more of the hormones they need.
As to Fenugreek and Red C. interaction,...I dont know about that one,that Louise mentioned....I'd like to know more about that myself.
Okay lets look at what you are taking right now.....
Wish's list(haha)----------------------
Morning, Afternoon and Evening
2x Capsules 540mg Saw Palmetto
1x Capsule 610mg Fenugeek
1x Capsule 430mg Red Clover
2x Capsules Gaba 750 at night only
Afternoon 1 soy protien shake for added protien with 1/2 tp of licorice root
You might just be lacking in amounts of certain herbs.
Like the Red Clover and Saw P.
Daily....I'm taking
> 8-10 Saw 180mg each
> 6 fenugreek (equal to yours)
> 6 R.Clover (equal)
> 5-6 (guess) grams of licorice root powder in caps. These are no.0 caps.
> 2-3 pygeum (anti-androgen)
> Evening primrose oil 2000mg
> Folic acid
> Selenium
> milk thistle ext.
> Vitamin C
> soy lecithin (varys,depends on what I'm eating)
> Soy isoflavones around 240mg daily.
> A protein mix/or whey mix
Maybe I'm overdoing it,or one thing is interacting with another material.
......I'm having a slow down in development,not much aching or pains.....so I'm probably going to try glandulars or hormones at some point soon.
Just can't decide which product or drug I want to use.
I did have a time recently that I didnt have any licorice root....and when I started taking it again,..I started getting aches again,and some swelling.
Probably just some fluid engorgement..or the timing.
I don't like buying the herbs,if they aren't going to work anymore for me.
December 19 2007 at 2:06 PM wishfulthinking (Login wishfullthinking)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am just ending a cleansing period. I was on a basic program for 5 months and just took two weeks off to clense the system and I am preparaing to start again and I am looking for some advice. I was on a basic program see below. While on it I had some success. Some fat redistribution, some increase in nipple size and sensitivity, and about a 1/2 cup increase but no breast buds. Every time I would start to get some tenderness under the nipples it would hold there for about two days then it seemed to just back off, then return about two week latter. So any ideas to try and push to activating the breast buds. I am open to ideas. Try differnt herb? Increase the amount I'm Takeing? Please any help.
Morning 10 massage with Progesterone cream on breasts two weeks on two weeks off.
Morning 10 massage with soy oil and fenugeek two weeks on two weeks off.
Morning, Afternoon and Evening
2x Capsules 540mg Saw Palmetto
1x Capsule 610mg Fenugeek
1x Capsule 430mg Red Clover
2x Capsules Gaba 750 at night only
Afternoon 1 soy protien shake for added protien with 1/2 tp of licorice root
Author Reply
Louise
(no login) Re: Advice please on ramping up a program December 20 2007, 6:22 PM
I would swap the red clover for soy - both contain similar isoflavones but I've read somewhere not to use fenugreek with red clover but I know you can combine it with soy. Aim for roughly 1000mg daily soy.
Add:
1000mg starflower (borage) oil 1-2x daily
OR/ 1000mg evening primrose oil 1-2x daily
1000mg flax seed oil 1-2x daily
Hops, oats, barley grass - see Eve's program page
Consider adding fennel.
Consider second protein shake and be conscious of protein intake vs. calorie intake / fat intake at every meal. I use milk protein powder from www.myprotein.co.uk it dissoves easily and is totally tasteless, because it is milk-based you can either make a shake or add to hot chocolate, soups or other wet food and it just makes them nice and creamy. For biological females it's good to drink 2 litres of water.
The oils are usually horrible huge caps so I just take a teaspoon of either starflower or evening primrose oil each day which is approx 5000mg. I take ground flax seeds in powdered form (equivalent to 20% oil so I use 5 teaspoons). A good boobie food is porridge because you can use soy milk, oats, a little of the herbs in powdered form, ground flax seed and some fruit in the microwave and it's quite nice and warming.
This is mostly based on Eve's program and the Wonderup ingredients....hope I don't sound too bossy!
Are you doing any massages / suction?
Louise
(no login) Re: Advice please on ramping up a program December 20 2007, 6:25 PM
p.s. it's difficult to determine quantities for a biological male as you are probably bigger and your receptors less likely to respond or will respond more slowly....you may want to try the above for a month or two then consider adding an extra 20% of the herbs to see if that makes any difference. You may also want to try milk thistle to protect your liver (alcohol is supposed to be bad for boobs too) and you may want to get things like your liver and thyroid tested periodically.
Incidentally I definitely got more feelings when I took Wonderup + 1g soy + added hops, barley grass and avena sativa (oat). It's difficult to tell if I actually got growth because I mainly use suction (Brava).
wishfulthinking
(Login wishfullthinking) Thank you Louise January 4 2008, 2:08 AM
Thank you for the advice. I could use some more information. You mentioned replacing the red clover with soy isoflavins. Right now I am using a soy protine drink that contains the same amount of isoflavins as most capsules avialable. Also I am vegitarian and eat a fair amount of Soy protine and Tofu, plus 1cup of soy milk a day would this suffice to replace the red clover. I do massage 2X daily with tea tree oil mixed with a tincture of fenugreek for about 6 to 8 min each time. I am going to add the bourage oil and flax seed so any more ideas. I will give it 2 months and see what happens please be in touch
Louise
(Login Louise1982)
SENIOR MEMBER Sorry it turned into a novel! January 4 2008, 11:50 PM
It's difficult to say in terms of isoflavones (but you sure sound like you get a lot of soy!). Eve didn't use any extracts just powdered herb so I assume her soy was just ground beans - you could post to ask her about this on the main forum (if you don't create a login your post won't show up for a few hours) in which case you're probably having way more than she did. I got the soy bulk powder (10% isoflavones) from www.herbalextractsplus.com as it was the strongest isoflavones I could fins and quite frankly I have been totally rubbish at taking it! I just about manage to get the 6 wonderup tablets down daily but hardly ever remember to take anything else and I've been slacking in terms of drinking lots of water, protein consumption and omega oils - naughty naughty!
I'm veggie too (but not vegan), I couldn't stomach a shake even though soy milk is a lot nicer than normal milk. I eat the Slim Fast meal replacement bars as they contain 15g protein for 200 calories and 6g fat, they're quite nice but not very filling. I was eating an egg just about every day but after about 9 months just don't fancy it any more. I also bought the milk protein powder from www.my-protein.co.uk, it's great, lots of protein, hardly any calories and tastes of nothing. It actually improves hot chocolate and porridge as it has a creaminess to it. I intend to have a better go with herbs when I'm done with suction, it's hard to measure growth and sensation when my boobs are swollen up to an F cup and being pulled about every night by the machine. I don't want to overdo it and desensitise my receptors which can take months - years to fix (not sure that happens to a biological male). There are lots of nice soups and stews you can make that you can put beans (soy or a mixture), lentils and barley in - this kind of wet food (or chilli beans) is good for disguising a bit more protein powder + a bit of tofu if you feel brave. A small amount of tofu can be hidden in pasta sauce if you put it through the food processor.
In terms of massage I think you need to do it for a bit longer (at least 20 mins per day ideally 2x20) - see Tigerlily's program and Fenshui's program, you might also want to read my GY post near the top of the massage forum.
Have a look at the posts about green papaya (Fullness has had vest success with it) on the main page, it seems to help the digestive system and make the body use protein better.
You may also want to try a body builders balanced amino acid supplement (but not the cherry flavour liquid - it's disgusting!).
Be careful you're not getting too much soy or have a thyroid test (at least look up the symptoms of hypothyroisim so you can watch out). Soy can also lower body temperature which apparently is bad for boobs - you can bring it back up with L-tyrosine + kelp.
A small amount say 300mg of cayenne daily is good for the circulation and makes the other herbs work better.
Davilee
(Login Davata) Hey Wishful'.... January 13 2008, 5:44 AM
....Hey!...I wouldn't stop the Red clover at all...it contains several isoflavones that arent found in other herbs.
I would not take Borage oil, as I have been doing more study on it and it causes testosterone boosts in males.....
Chemically it is a adrenal gland tonic and an overall gland/hormone balancer
Sooo,its not right for males to take for breast development,it will do just the opposite than what you want...unless you want to have your testosterone boosted.
For women its great,as it just helps their own system produce more of the hormones they need.
As to Fenugreek and Red C. interaction,...I dont know about that one,that Louise mentioned....I'd like to know more about that myself.
Okay lets look at what you are taking right now.....
Wish's list(haha)----------------------
Morning, Afternoon and Evening
2x Capsules 540mg Saw Palmetto
1x Capsule 610mg Fenugeek
1x Capsule 430mg Red Clover
2x Capsules Gaba 750 at night only
Afternoon 1 soy protien shake for added protien with 1/2 tp of licorice root
You might just be lacking in amounts of certain herbs.
Like the Red Clover and Saw P.
Daily....I'm taking
> 8-10 Saw 180mg each
> 6 fenugreek (equal to yours)
> 6 R.Clover (equal)
> 5-6 (guess) grams of licorice root powder in caps. These are no.0 caps.
> 2-3 pygeum (anti-androgen)
> Evening primrose oil 2000mg
> Folic acid
> Selenium
> milk thistle ext.
> Vitamin C
> soy lecithin (varys,depends on what I'm eating)
> Soy isoflavones around 240mg daily.
> A protein mix/or whey mix
Maybe I'm overdoing it,or one thing is interacting with another material.
......I'm having a slow down in development,not much aching or pains.....so I'm probably going to try glandulars or hormones at some point soon.
Just can't decide which product or drug I want to use.
I did have a time recently that I didnt have any licorice root....and when I started taking it again,..I started getting aches again,and some swelling.
Probably just some fluid engorgement..or the timing.
I don't like buying the herbs,if they aren't going to work anymore for me.