[Samantha Rogers]

Thanks, Patti! Hee hee, you make me laugh
Hugs, girl!

[Lisa Lou]

This has been another thought provoking exercise, thank you Samantha!

As Clara Kay alluded to in her post, this journey of breast growth is, for most of us, so much more. It is a journey of discovery of who we are, a quest for the holy grail of "Self," and for many of us a crossroads.

I have always been attracted sexually, primarily to women, but have had the occasional male that just stood out, but as Lisa I identify as bi-sexual with a preference for women (penis or vagina... ), as Patty so succinctly put it, if there's a guy, he better be "balls to the wall" gorgeous!

Although porn has not been an addiction for me, it has been a source of arousal, especially on deployments when my SO, or flavor of the month was not in the same hemisphere (yes that sounds very piggish, and reflects who I was!). What I have noticed over the last 15 years as Lisa has emerged stronger and stronger is that my sole preference for porn is Lesbian and it is about 50/50 = erotica/instructional! My counselor has made some interesting observations about that one.

What I do find, increasingly, I no longer look at women as I did 20 or 30 years ago, as a life support system for a vagina (crude and chauvinist, I know, but I am being honest here). Now I look at them with wonder and awe (and not a little envy), not for their physical beauty alone, but for what they endure being a woman! When I read statistics as were released this week that over 20% of all women in college have been the victim of some level of sexual assault, I am appalled. But, I am also awed, because statistically 20% of the women I work with and socialize with every day fall into that category. DOES THAT PISS ANYONE OFF BESIDES ME??? BUTT, on the other side, it also explains a lot, why so many women walk with their head down and avoid eye contact with strange men, why there is such an impenetrable shield put up by so many women, why they close themselves off, even to banal elevator chats. But, most of them persevere and move forward, and for that, when I admire feminine beauty (with or without a penis ), I admire a person who in spite of their culture, in spite of society, in spite of the forces that conspire to keep her barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen, in spite of the pain in the ass of menses, pregnancy, childbirth, and putting up with asshole men, they somehow have the strength to get up in the morning and move forward.

So, the question arises, if the roles in our culture were reversed, and I know there have been lots of books and movies (and porn) on the subject, if males were the weaker sex, if E created muscle and T made us weaker, smaller, and more emotional, would the majority of men be able to function the way women in our world and society do? Honestly, I think not.

I love women, I respect women, and some days (like today), I wish I were one........, instead of just 1/2 of one, but I will take that, and relish it, because it is who I am, and although 99.9% of those I encounter see me as 100% male, I know better, and that, my sisters, is enough.

Thank you sisters and guys for your companionship on this journey, I hope in some small way I can help you in yours.

Love and hugs,
LL

[Jessica Leigh]

Lisa,

Well said. Early on in my life that 20% statistic of abuse to women (never mind to trans people) was a major factor why I abandoned my pursuit. It's something I think about almost every time I watch an episode is CSI.

Getting back to the poll. No doubts I love women, totally turned on by lesbians. My dream is that is how my relationship evolves into with my wife. My dream. Not hers. But I do on occasionally google 'naked transsexual' and browse the images - never go to the actual sites. I must admit I'm envious of some of those people for their physical beauty and saddened too for the emotional toll that got their photo on those sites in the first place. And how many are just photoshopped women with added on penises?

I know a few gay men. Married. But I just can't picture them intimate. And even in female mode I can't picture myself intimate with another man.

[GoneGirl]

Lisa, as your half sister, again, we agree. My admiration for women, as people, has greatly improved since I've stopped being afraid to acknowledge my own feminine proclivities.

Nature has decreed that men be predators and women prey as an effective means to insure the survival of the species. I believe that the only thing that throttles that primal instinct is the enforcement of societal codes of conduct through moral conditioning and the threat of incarceration. As individuals, women have to constantly guard against the predatory instinct of men. You can feel it yourself when you venture out en femme (a little shudder).

Personally, I never experienced that instinct -- the irresistible drive to copulate. I was attracted to women, in a different way. Yes, I want to experience the radiance of their feminine charms, but I also enjoy the workings of their minds, and to experience the feelings and emotions that are distinctly female. I can be a good friend to a woman if given half a chance.

Like most young men, my admiration of the feminine form became the target of my sexual arousal, but not the woman herself. This contradiction plagued and frustrated me throughout life. I was, at the same time, both envious and appalled at the attitudes of most men toward women. Although I found sexual release in masturbating to pornographic material, I was not drawn to porn depictions of man on woman missionary style sexual intercourse. Man-woman sex of a degrading nature was often arousing, though. As you can imagine, I developed an unhealthy attitude about sex with feelings of shame and guilt, and a deteriorating self-image.

I now understand, that I subconsciously identified with the female in most pornographic sexual depictions. Not being attracted to men, however, I found it repulsive to be vaginally penetrated by a man. My porn collection was dominated by images of beautiful solo girls and, later, pre-op trans women. Images of men's bodies were limited to close-ups of erect penises; rarely full body images, and almost never including the man's face. I was curious about gay porn, but never found it the least bit arousing.

A big clue to my sexual orientation was staring me in the face: cross dressing. It was incredibly arousing for me, while, at the same time, producing the strongest feelings of guilt and shame. When younger, slimmer, and prettier, I could feminize myself to the point that I liked looking at myself in the mirror. I even felt the desire to f**k myself once or twice, and probably would have if it was physically possible.

Only recently have I learned about men who are aroused by thoughts of being a woman, i.e., crossdreamers. I'm attracted to the idea of being a woman and playing the role of a woman in a sexual encounter. Under the influence of testosterone, that feminine gender identity produces sexual arousal and a quick route to orgasm. I thought it was a fetish. Now I know it was simply what happens when mixing my female gender identity with my male sexual libido. (PM took care of the latter.)

And, Samantha, let me say that learning that there is a name for people like me, helped to relieve my feelings of shame, guilt, and inadequacy. It also gave me an opportunity to come out to my wife about my gender identity and sexual orientation. You see, people generally fear the unknown, and either recoil from it, or attack it. They are much more rational and open about things they can understand.

Now that I'm accepting of who I am, even embracing my new found self, I'm finally at peace. No more confusion, frustration, or envy. Okay, I am still envious of some of you younger, prettier girls who have so much to look forward to in your lives as the women you were meant to be. I'm happy for you.

Clara

[Lisa Lou]

Clara, so eloquently stated.

Okay, ladies, we are now officially in the deep end of the pool... The question today is, how much (or little) did the women who were in your life shape your sexual and gender orientation?

I grew up with 4 very strong, loving, caring and smart women: Mother, maternal grandmother, 2 sisters (biological, sorry CK! ). My sisters were 9 and 11 when I was born, so as I have said my entire life, it was like a grew up with 4 mothers... not only was I the "baby" and only boy in my immediate family, I was the youngest of 16 grandchildren Nana's. As one of my exes said, I was the "golden child," and as one of my therapists put it so succinctly, "you never had a chance!"

Needless to say, my attitudes and view of women was immensely influenced by them, but will not bore you with the stories, only wanted to share with you my frame of reference.

Apologies, Samantha, didn't mean to hijack the thread, just thought this was an appropriate addition to the who gender identity discussion.

Hugs,

LL (The Phoenix!)

[GoneGirl]

Thanks little sis (Lisa).

I was also the progeny of a family of strong women, and the only boy in a family of seven. I grew up in a lower middle class neighborhood which had few outstanding male role models. There were many families in which the woman married down instead of up because she was not a Hollywood beauty, and then had to struggle to survive against sporadic incomes, alcoholism, large families, spousal abuse, as well as, ignorance and prejudice.

I looked up to many of these women and relied on their generosity and counsel all through my childhood. I won't say that my environment had the most influence in determining my gender identity, but I can't believe it didn't have some effect. Ironically, I think it may have prompted me to cling to my assigned gender identity even more as I attempted to prove that a man could be as strong and responsible as a woman. That attitude stayed with me into adulthood. It made me an excellent father and husband (so I've been told; except for my sexual inadequacies ).

In this time of rising esteem and opportunity for women in western culture, I fear for the future of boys and men in our society. Testosterone is not in great demand in our world today. Take a look at the Athena Doctrine and tell me if you agree that feminine values are ascendant today while masculine values are in decline.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drUbt-iFlP8

Clara

[Samantha Rogers]

Hee hee...Clara you always write so beautifully and thoughtfully, and crass Sammie comes along and mucks it all up...
Let me see if I can avoid that, this time.
Quite honestly, I am amazed how often things said by you and Lisa express exactly feelings or sentiments I might have enunciated myself. For three people of such diverse backgrounds, it is really wonderful how much there is in common among we three (and likely many more)
This also might better be placed in a different thread, but here goes...
Lisa, you spoke of the women in your life. I only had the one. My mother. My folks split up when I was about 6. I grew up with my mother, a strong but very loving woman, and with my older brother forced into the role of surrogate father for me. Searching for a feminine role, for me, as with many, goes back to childhood. Whenever I delve into these memories I can immediately hear the Freudians beginning to clack away. LOL You see my mother worked and there were always hours in the afternoon when my brother was out and she was not home yet, and little Sammie was being born. My suspicion has always been that my gender issues are in some way connected to trying to fill the void created by the absence of my mother. Throughout my life, the emergence of Sammie has always been strongest when I was either single and lonely, or away from home, or exceptionally insecure or stressed. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out, girls. And on one level, I did figure it all out long ago. The harder part was the battle to forgive myself, and drop the feelings of guilt and embrace the girl with love and total acceptance.
While I understand we are all different, Clara, and I certainly do not want to undermine whatever works for someone else, especially you, dear one, for me, labels and names only got in the way and intensified the guilt. It was much easier when I stopped caring in any way what anyone else cared or thought and simply began to embrace,love and accept wholeheartedly what my own personal reality is. The moment that happened was, for me, like being born anew, only this time with some idea of the skills needed to parent this new girl, not with recrimination and shame but with love.
Sorry, this may have gotten off track.
I said before that this board is often much like a confessional booth. I feel like any day I may get a bill for psychotherapy services.
Hugs

[GoneGirl]

Thanks, Sammi.

Don't ever say you 'muck' things up. That's not at all true. You combine serious, insightful ideas along with humor and good will. It's lovely.

Clara

[Samantha Rogers]

Aw, shucks....
Tee hee, Thanks, CK.... always the lady!

[AnnieBL]

Clara, Samantha, Lisa, thanks for collectively saying what I would have liked to say, and saying it so much better. I can relate to almost everything you all say, and my background is even more diverse (though it had characteristics corresponding quite closely to those that you, Samantha, listed in another thread as wanting to avoid - no offense, I've tried quite hard to escape some of it myself, and found myself labelled as poor relation and scholarship boy). But as I have probably said too many times already, I always seem to find myself as odd-person-out in that almost everyone here is or has been a cross dresser, and I never really have been.

If I have been right in thinking that what I'll term the gendering of my fetal brain was fouled up by my mother getting German measles in the middle of the process, I seem to have landed up inadequately programmed both for masculinity and for femininity, leaving a kind of mental hole in the middle. Although having a male body, from puberty until recently subject to normal male hormonal urges on the physical side, I have found it difficult to adapt to environments which expect typical masculine behaviour patterns, ie behavioural masculinity per se, and although I would like to have been born with a female body, and I actively seek to experience what it would be like to have such a body, there has been no major urge to pursue behavioural femininity on its own.

Now that I am experiencing a limited degree of feminization of my body, I begin to feel that some proportionate degree of feminine presentation and dress may possibly be appropriate, although whether this feeling is brain-driven or phytoestrogen driven, I don't know. I do know that I'm much more at peace with myself and those that I love, and I'm sure that PM has something to do with that.