[Samantha Rogers]

Flame, I was going to skip this little exercise entirely, because in my view it is an impossible question to answer. Changing something as profound as the bio gender of a new born would engage so many enormous changes in everything over a lifetime that there is no way truly to know what internal phsychological bits would remain the same. Your alphabet designation is liable to end up quite different as well.
Still, to play along, just for fun, I believe I would have had no difficulty being born female. I dont think the male aspects would have ever manifested. So no, no dyshoria.... group one all the way...totally female all the way...maybe next lifetime!

[Epicene]

So it seems I'm the loner in the second group.

(interesting new av flame, looks familiar but I can't quite place it.)

My new avatar is Quistis Trepe from FFVIII. She used to my first avatar I had for a while. This particular avatar is fanart as opposed to being from the actual game.

You're not alone flame. I'm with you in the second group.

[AnnieBL]

I've been puzzling how to answer this. It seems to me that there are three different questions here, the title of the thread, the first statement of the question in the original post, and the second rather different statement of it that follows.

I think that if I had been born a genetic female, but with the same scrambled brain that I have, if that were possible, I would have been just as uncomfortable being forced into the female box as I grew up as I was by being forced into the male box. So my answer to the thread title is Environmental. My answer to the first statement is Not Cisgendered, and to the second statement is Yes, my dysphoria is a direct result of being born male. Which makes me both first and second group. I always wanted things both ways.

[flamesabers]

Annie,

Maybe you're overanalyzing the question I posed?

I suppose it could be boiled down to: if you were born a bio-female, would you be cisgendered or not? It sounds like you fall more in the second group, since you say would be just as uncomfortable with being in the female box as you are now in the male box. In other words, just because your dysphoria is directly related to being a bio-male doesn't automatically mean you're in group one. If you suspect you would feel some dysphoria or cross-gender identification as a bio-female, that qualifies you for being in group two.

I hope this clears up your confusion.

[AnnieBL]

Overanalysing? Well yes, Flame, that's part of my nature I suppose. On second thoughts,perhaps I should not have said that my dysphoria was a direct result of being born male - rather it was a direct result of the gender conditioning of my fetal brain being incomplete. As for the title, perhaps I could say Innate rather than Inherit; after all I was born with my addled brain rather than inheriting it.

[GoneGirl]

First group. No question.

Clara

Clara,

You say that with such certainty! That surprises me somewhat, given your significant male identity. Are you thinking that you only have that because you're a bio male?

I'm asking because I'm not so sure in my case. I have both a fairly strong masculine identity, and (as it turns out ) a fairly strong feminine identity. It's not clear to me, other than it would be very interesting to find out what it would be like, that that wouldn't still be the case if I were in the first group. So, right now, that has me joining flame in the second group, unless I can be swayed otherwise.

Michelle

Hi Michelle,
I understand your surprise, Michelle. I've written in the past that I have a strong male identity. There are three reasons why I picked group 1.

First, my Clara identity is not a static thing. As I embrace her and give her freedom, she is growing stronger each month. Many aspects of my male identity are being merged with my female identity, and I don't find that my male identity is being threatened or displaced.

Secondly, if I woke up tomorrow and found that I was a GG with the same personality, IQ, and moral values that I now have, I think I could adapt to the change fairly easily. Most of the things I like to do are not exclusively for men. I would be viewed, though, as a strong-minded, independent, and somewhat unconventional woman, much like several woman in my relation.

Thirdly, I've discovered that my allegiance to the male sex is fairly weak. I prefer the company of women and men who have a softer side. I have few male friends; my wife is my best friend, in fact. I never really liked the male body. I've tried nearly all my life to fit the template of a normal American man, and never could really make it work. I love the female form, and would prefer to look like a woman. I guess that's why I'm growing breasts, ridding myself of body hair, and why I like to dress up as a woman. I wish I could fit the female template well, but that's simply impossible.

Maybe I'm wrong, but the only thing that I would miss as a woman is the muscular strength that I now have (although I'm nowhere near as strong as most men). I would have to compensate for that, or forego some pursuits.

My sexual orientation would switch to same sex since I'm sure I would still be attracted to women. Would I want to be attracted to men instead? That would make me a different person, wouldn't it? I'll say 'no'.

Clara

[spanky]

I think I would be in group two. The GID label has always seemed like an imperfect fit for me in that I am not especially uncomfortable with being male. Indeed, until several years ago, I felt quite at peace with being male. I just really enjoy "pushing the boundaries" and experiencing being more feminine, increasingly as I age.

[AnnieBL]

Hi Michelle,
I understand your surprise, Michelle. I've written in the past that I have a strong male identity. There are three reasons why I picked group 1.

First, my Clara identity is not a static thing. As I embrace her and give her freedom, she is growing stronger each month. Many aspects of my male identity are being merged with my female identity, and I don't find that my male identity is being threatened or displaced.

Secondly, if I woke up tomorrow and found that I was a GG with the same personality, IQ, and moral values that I now have, I think I could adapt to the change fairly easily. Most of the things I like to do are not exclusively for men. I would be viewed, though, as a strong-minded, independent, and somewhat unconventional woman, much like several woman in my relation.

Thirdly, I've discovered that my allegiance to the male sex is fairly weak. I prefer the company of women and men who have a softer side. I have few male friends; my wife is my best friend, in fact. I never really liked the male body. I've tried nearly all my life to fit the template of a normal American man, and never could really make it work. I love the female form, and would prefer to look like a woman. I guess that's why I'm growing breasts, ridding myself of body hair, and why I like to dress up as a woman. I wish I could fit the female template well, but that's simply impossible.

Maybe I'm wrong, but the only thing that I would miss as a woman is the muscular strength that I now have (although I'm nowhere near as strong as most men). I would have to compensate for that, or forego some pursuits.

My sexual orientation would switch to same sex since I'm sure I would still be attracted to women. Would I want to be attracted to men instead? That would make me a different person, wouldn't it? I'll say 'no'.

Clara

I can go along with a great deal of what you say here, yet I find myself in Group 2, admittedly after some reconsideration prompted by Flame. Possibly an essential difference is that I don't think my brain was strongly conditioned for either gender so that as I grew up I tended to lose my chilhood friends as they each became 'one of the girls' or 'one of the boys', and myself became increasingly withdrawn and developed a speech impediment. Because of my size I was reasonably immune from bullying by my peers, but not from some adults, and tended to attract misfits of various types, none of whom I felt at all close to, but who did provide some companionship. Technical hobbies, sometimes shared, and later travel were also an escape. On becoming at puberty fully a physical male, I was left with an intense curiosity as to what it would feel like to be a woman, and an almost total inability to initiate any contact with one, however physically attractive.
.
You are very fortunate that Clara and your wife can get on. My own wife and long time lover, and even longer best friend, is much less comfortable with the changes in my body and the concept of it being less than fully male. She tries quite hard to slide away from any direct discussion of the situation as it applies to us, which makes it quite hard to reassure her that our relationship is not threatened and she is not expected to become in any way lesbian.

[GoneGirl]

Flame phrased the question:

If your life had started on a different path and your bio-sex was female, do you think you would be cisgendered or not? In other words, do you see your dysphoria as being a direct consequence of being born a bio-male, or do you think it's simply an innate aspect of your nature to push the boundaries of gender so to speak?

It was the "or do you think it's simply an innate aspect of your nature to push the boundaries of gender so to speak?" that made me pick group 1. It not in my innate nature to do so. I don't have any desire to do war with the idea of there being two distinct genders. I would prefer to fall to one end of the gender spectrum or the other, but, alas, that didn't happen for me. I do think that if my biological sex was female instead of male, it would turn out to be a better fit with my feminine gender identity which is only beginning to realize its full potential. My male identity is largely the result of conditioning over many, many years, something which would never have happened had I been born female.

Clara

[undecided]

Hi everyone.

If your life had started on a different path and your bio-sex was female, do you think you would be cisgendered or not? In other words, do you see your dysphoria as being a direct consequence of being born a bio-male, or do you think it's simply an innate aspect of your nature to push the boundaries of gender so to speak?

I know this is all hypothetical, but I think I would be in the second group. I think this would especially be the case if I would still closely identify with being an ISTJ.

Your thoughts?

First group, at least thats what I would suspect, at-least, if my feelings were the same then as they are now. As others have mentioned, Tomboy, but one that could dress girly, girly when needed.

I actually have a sister, 6 years younger than I am, she was always trying to do whatever I was doing ( I`m talking of when we were both still kids ). She was, and still is very much a tomboy. I often wished she and I could have traded places. I always suspected she would have been happier as a boy, and I know I would have been happier as a girl.