[bryony]

Wow guys...

I mean come onn... We all are not here because we are perfect husbands or straight honest dudes.

We all have flaws, but enough with crude judgement.

Byronne or whatever your name is dude get a life seriously. I could try to shame you as well because no righteous husband will try to grow boobs or be on this site to begin with.

Not true. We all have GD, but some of us told our wives before we proposed and gave them a chance to decide with full disclosure, and certainly before kids happen along.

We all are sick in our own ways. If you cannot offer a decent advice then stop shaming as well.

My "decent advice" was to get you to re-think the phrase: "I am currently married but will be filling for divorce if decided to go this route." When you appear to think that filing for divorce is pretty inevitable, it doesn't give an impression of fidelity.

And before you judge, I am one heck of a.father to my kids and I might have cheated on my wife once, but never after and no intentions of doing that ever. I was to stupid when I did that.

I'm glad to hear that - but don't you think your kids would have a better chance of growing up as better people if they had a couple of loving parents at home?

And when my.wife can forgive me.then seriously I don't care what you think of me.

I wouldn't expect you to - but you didn't give the impression in your original message that you were taking her into account. I may have this wrong, and if so, I apologise, but if you found your wife sexually desirable when you got married, sufficiently so to have more than one kid, where is this pressing need coming to abandon her and try out homosexuality? is it possible that you are looking at shemale porn overmuch? If so, then you probably should use PM, because it will reduce your libido, stop you wanting to watch porn, stop you feeling the urge to cross-dress and could save your marriage.

I am just seeing different options out there. And sorry I am not going to abandon my kids.never. I will be a good father to them.

Then you need to try hard to make your marriage work, because they are almost certain to grow up with a level of dyfunctionality in a single-parent household.

When you aren't there, you will be used as a threat. When you get them you will spoil them. Your kids will learn to play you both off against each other. That's just how it is.

I May never do anything.not even nbe, but I need to understand different ways of coping my gd issues which I have from childhood and always thought will go away once.more responsibilities kick in.

No.I am not.doing.this.for.some sexual kick, but need to understand consequences as well...

I may have got the wrong end of the stick, but it was understandable in the context of "being a bottom" and "craving males more often". Unfortunate way of putting things, but it sounds like you want to do the right thing. Good.

OK, well now we have that out of the way, I'm quite willing to be helpful if you want and can get over the unfortunate first impressions.

Assuming you do want some useful advice, here is mine.

First, you need to be thoroughly open and frank with your wife about your problem. You need to explain that nothing is going to relieve your GD symptoms apart from counteracting your testosterone. The side effect will be breast growth, but no worse than the gynecomastia that many men experience nowadays due to alcohol, drugs, and obesity.

I am living proof that pretty severe GD can be countered simply with PM and transition to trans-female is not necessarily needed.

With her agreement you need to buy PM from, I would suggest, Ainterolherbs.com

I would recommend 2x500g capsules in the morning and 2 in the evening daily. This should relieve your suffering pretty quickly.

You may need a bigger dose, depending on your body size. Taking any kind of meds, the optimum dosage depends on body size. In my opinion, sometimes people give up PM and move to transition because they haven't used a big enough dosage.

Bryony

[bryony]

(Off-topic for this thread, but I want to write something elsewhere regarding thoughts that I've had about the very different nature of male/female libido w.r.t. climax, and the reason, therefore, that the stereotypical male behaves as he does.)

I, for one, would be very interested in reading that.

Ok, I'll start a thread off soon (not today) which do you think would be the most relevant stream?

B.

[flamesabers]

You misunderstood me - you say you are androgynous, but in this matter you betray, to me, the fact that your male side appears to dominate your thinking and your feminine empathic side is taking a back seat. You chopped out the example to which it refer

Oh, I thought you meant I was going against my male side. I don't see myself as being masculine in this thread, rather egalitarian. In any case, I find it difficult to splice my traits into the realm of masculine or feminine.

Speaking of empathy, couldn't it be said that in your posts you express more compassion towards females than males? After all, you've said you idolize women and regard them as better beings than us.

[MichelleM]

(Off-topic for this thread, but I want to write something elsewhere regarding thoughts that I've had about the very different nature of male/female libido w.r.t. climax, and the reason, therefore, that the stereotypical male behaves as he does.)

I, for one, would be very interested in reading that.

Ok, I'll start a thread off soon (not today) which do you think would be the most relevant stream?

B.

I'm not sure, but I'd guess probably general discussion, or possibly gender identity.

[Lotus]

(Off-topic for this thread, but I want to write something elsewhere regarding thoughts that I've had about the very different nature of male/female libido w.r.t. climax, and the reason, therefore, that the stereotypical male behaves as he does.)

I, for one, would be very interested in reading that.

Ok, I'll start a thread off soon (not today) which do you think would be the most relevant stream?

B.

I'm not sure, but I'd guess probably general discussion, or possibly gender identity.

We have an adult section.

[Lotus]

Sorry byrony,

I gotta disagree with you here about withholding sexuality from your future spouse/loved one. Brain aromatase, which occurs throughout a male's lifetime can explain why some have no idea of future sexuality. So I don't buy we should've been upfront with our future mate. "Unless......such behavior/desires are truly known adhead of time, sure, then assign the blame/shame as it's been referred too. Adrenal deficiencies in both sexes explain a lot, so who's to say when GID surfaces, aromatase starts in fetal brain devoplment and w/secondary sexual determination. Hey lol, someone had to bring up science in right?, nothing personal

Action 1: deliberately withholding your sexuality from someone you desire in order to get them to fall in love with you marry you.

GYNECOMASTIA - AN OCCASIONAL MARKER?
metabolic and genetic conditions produce gynecomastia and mixed sex/gender individuals, potential links between aromatase, or other enzymes, causing both gynecomastia, and transgenderism, could exits.
The Journal Of Gender Speculation
http://www.oocities.org/gmapop04/


Aromatase and gynecomastia
http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Glenn_Braunstein2/publication/12585336_Aromatase_and_gynecomastia/links/0c96051af347814625000000.pdf?ev=pub_ext_doc_dl&origin=publication_detail&inViewer=true


Regulation of sex-specific formation of oestrogen in brain development: Endogenous inhibitors of aromatase
Abstract
Brain sexual differentiation occurs during steroid-sensitive phases in early development, and is affected particularly by exposure to oestrogens formed in the brain by aromatisation of androgen. The organisational effects of oestrogen result in male-specific neuronal morphology, control of reproductive behaviour, and patterns of gonadotrophin secretion. A question which still has to be resolved is what determines changes in aromatase activity effective for the differentiation of sexually dimorphic brain development during sensitive periods of growth. In the mouse, a sex difference exists at early stages of embryonic development in aromatase-containing neurones of the hypothalamus. The embryonic aromatase system is regulated later in foetal development by androgens. Testosterone treatment increases the numbers of aromatase-immunoreactive hypothalamic neuronal cell bodies. Kinetic evidence from studies on the avian brain suggest that endogenous steroid inhibitors of aromatase, probably formed within neuroglia, also have a role in the control of oestrogen production. Inhibitory kinetic constant determination of endogenous androgenic metabolites formed in the brain showed that preoptic aromatase is potently inhibited by 5α-androstanedione (Ki = 6 nM) and less strongly by 5β-dihydrotestosterone (Ki= 350 nM). Regulation by steroidal and possibly non-steroidal inhibitors may contribute to the special characteristics and plasticity in aromatase activity which develops at certain stages in ontogeny.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/art...6095002375


Aromatase: Neuromodulator in the control of behavior ☆

Abstract
Estrogens are required for both the organization of the brain in early development and adult behavior. Two approaches have been used in our laboratory to study the behavioral role of brain aromatase. First, brain metabolism of testosterone (T) has been related to behavior in the same individual using a well established neuroendocrine model, the ring dove, in which estradiol-17β (E2) has specific effects on brain mechanisms of male behavior. Aromatase in preoptic area (POA) (a) has a high activity (Vmax) and strong substrate binding affinity (Km < 5 nM), (b) is regulated by both androgens and estrogens, and the type of regulation differs according to brain area, © is influenced by products of an endogenous inactivating pathway, 5β-reduction; 5β-dihydrotestosterone and other 5β-reduced metabolites appear to be non-genomic regulators of the brain aromatase. Preoptic aromatase activity is also influenced by photoperiod and socio-sexual stimuli. The codistribution of regulated aromatase activity and estrogen receptor cells is found to be T-dependent. Our second approach has been to relate the aromatase system to developmental sex differences in brain structure and behavior of the Mongolian gerbil. Neonatal gerbil aromatase is relatively active in the POA, but has a weaker T substrate-binding affinity (Km = 30 nM) than the dove. T acting via its metabolite, E2, masculinizes the sexually dimorphic area of the hypothalamus; the differentiating effect is asymmetric. We suggest that the regulation of the brain aromatase system may be lateralized during steroid-sensitive periods of development.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/art...609390255U

[Lotus]

However..........I do have an issue suggesting taking more PM is the answer, especially at 3000 mg. It's been documented increased dosages of PM/hrt (and phytoestrogens too) are ineffective. And btw, PM does carry health risks, which has been certainly documented by our BN members, (research posted on BN).

I would consider taking some time off from extended use of PM, (include phytoestrogens with that statement). And that's simply because the proliferation of cancers, breast, bone, prostate. Everyone carries the cancer gene, continued stimulation of breast and other receptors increase the odds of cancers, better play it safe along the way. Adding some preventive safeguards in NBE is a smart move, we want normal growth, not malignant growth.

[bryony]

Sorry byrony,

I gotta disagree with you here about withholding sexuality from your future spouse/loved one. Brain aromatase, which occurs throughout a male's lifetime can explain why some have no idea of future sexuality. So I don't buy we should've been upfront with our future mate. "Unless......such behavior/desires are truly known adhead of time, sure, then assign the blame/shame as it's been referred too. Adrenal deficiencies in both sexes explain a lot, so who's to say when GID surfaces, aromatase starts in fetal brain devoplment and w/secondary sexual determination. Hey lol, someone had to bring up science in right?, nothing personal

Action 1: deliberately withholding your sexuality from someone you desire in order to get them to fall in love with you marry you.

I hate to disagree Lotus, but by your very words, you are agreeing with me.

"deliberately" is exactly what I mean by "such behavior/desires are truly known adhead of time".

When I got married, way back in 1977, there was no internet as such, and I had to get by with what little information I could glean from text books. As far as I could make out, I had a transvestic fetish. It bothered me a lot that I seem unable to resist using it whenever I had an opportunity. I made sure my wife-to-be understood this well in advance of marriage proposal. I had no awareness of gender dysphoria then, but as time went by, as I learned more, I told her about it. We worked through it together. Thankfully, PM helped me to deal with it.

I can't say that the outcome would have been as happy if I had not told her in the first place.

I think the guilt at not having told a wife, for the short-term advantage of getting a relationship based primarily on sex procured through dishonesty, would probably cause a deep resentment, and the sort of person who would lie to gain such advantage would probably manage to persuade himself that the guilt is all the wife's fault for "not understanding" him. As always, its my opinion, but then so is everything we write here.

Those papers you refer to I guess indicate that GD can get worse over time. If so, then it does not surprise me - but that makes it all the more important to keep your loved ones in the loop, doesn't it?

B.

[bryony]

However..........I do have an issue suggesting taking more PM is the answer, especially at 3000 mg. It's been documented increased dosages of PM/hrt (and phytoestrogens too) are ineffective.

Documented where? In the literature or anecdotally? Also, ineffective for what? Breast growth? Don't care. It certainly isn't ineffective for my GD.

I can quite categorically say that, for anxiolitic and anti-depressive effects, in my personal case, 1 gram of PM lasts about 4 hours. If today is not a bad day I can get by on 2g. If today is a bad GD day, then it could be 3,4 or 5g. That's been how I've been dealing with life for the last 3 years.

And btw, PM does carry health risks, which has been certainly documented by our BN members, (research posted on BN).

Which health risks? Anything other than vague concerns or were they positively diagnosed as related to PM? I'd certainly appreciate a reference, because I have had no problems, other than some early lower back spasms (which I now think were testicular).

I would consider taking some time off from extended use of PM, (include phytoestrogens with that statement). And that's simply because the proliferation of cancers, breast, bone, prostate. Everyone carries the cancer gene, continued stimulation of breast and other receptors increase the odds of cancers, better play it safe along the way. Adding some preventive safeguards in NBE is a smart move, we want normal growth, not malignant growth.

I'm not against playing it safe, but I've come across clinical papers that indicate a protective effect against breast cancer with PM. It certainly seems safer than Pharm E. Have you used Google Scholar for "Mirifica" and "Cancer"?

E.g.
http://www.siamnatural.com/documentation...011-09.pdf

"These preliminary results are indicative of a potential anti-cancer action of PM that may be of use in the treatment of breast cancer. Further studies are
required to confirm this possibility"

Also:

http://journal.hep.com.cn/fmd/EN/10.1007...012-0184-8

"...fairly considerable scientific researches, both in vitro in cell lines and in vivo in various species of animals including humans, have been conducted to date to address its estrogenic activity on the reproductive organs, bones, cardiovascular diseases and other climacteric related symptoms. The antioxidative capacity and antiproliferative effect on tumor cell lines have also been assessed. In general, P. mirifica could be applicable for preventing, or as a therapeutic for, the symptoms related to estrogen deficiency in menopausal women as well as in andropausal men."

In fact the preamble to the abstract of that last reference starts off:
"Pueraria mirifica is a medicinal plant endemic to Thailand. It has been used in Thai folklore medicine for its rejuvenating qualities in aged women and men for nearly one hundred years."

So if it was dangerous, you'd kind of think that the Thai authorities would know about it by now, wouldn't you? Instead, their research shows it has protective anti-cancer qualities.

However, getting back to your original comment "I do have an issue suggesting taking more PM is the answer" - let's have some context: In the case of someone experiencing sufficient GD to endanger their marriage, and contrasted with the known and proven dangers of pharmaceutical HRT (the route that a transitioner ends up with) - the real, proven dangers of breast cancer and thrombosis - I think, absolutely that a century old traditional Asian root, taken by thousands upon thousands of Thai people, where research indicates that it actually protects against cancer, then, yes, yes, yes, take as much PM as required to make your marriage work.

Because, the alternative will almost certainly be transition and the much more dangerous HRT when the GD gets bad enough, and almost certainly the end of your marriage, and definitely the end of your relationship as it was.

Over the years I've seen several people start on PM and then move on to HRT, and I conjecture it was because they saw and improvement in their mental state but not enough of an improvement, due to fears of taking more than 2g per day.

Let me state now, for the record, that I have often had 4g per day, sometimes 5g per day over the last 3 years with no ill effects, only the ability to live life like a normal human being.

Every decision in life means taking risks; I am one of the most risk-averse people that I know.

Choice 1 - take no PM - RISK: suffer GD; marriage in danger of failing

Choice 2 - go to psychiatrist and get diagnosed with extreme GD - RISK: HRT; risks of cancer and thrombosis if I don't have an orchiectomy, possible slippery slope towards an unhappy transition.

Choice 3 - take PM as needed to control GD - RISK: none that I have found documented in clinical papers as yet (but I await correction).


B.

[bryony]

(Off-topic for this thread, but I want to write something elsewhere regarding thoughts that I've had about the very different nature of male/female libido w.r.t. climax, and the reason, therefore, that the stereotypical male behaves as he does.)

I, for one, would be very interested in reading that.

Ok, I'll start a thread off soon (not today) which do you think would be the most relevant stream?

B.

I'm not sure, but I'd guess probably general discussion, or possibly gender identity.

We have an adult section.

I wasn't thinking of writing it in a lascivious style, Lotus. There are plenty of texts involving the properties of orgasm that are considered general knowledge. I haven't checked the latest school curricula for sex education, but I wouldn't be surprised to find it discussed there.
(There's quite a bit of Wikipedia involving weird practices that should be restricted to adults in my opinion.)

It certainly isn't true to say that "we" (biological males) have an "Adult" section. I just had a quick look and couldn't find it .

Is there a censorship committee that I should forward my thread to for official approval?

B.