[flamesabers]

And that, Flamesabers... is when your scale will be meaningless.

Miss C,

My intention with a GD scale is to provide a point of reference for members, rather than to insinuate that everyone who gets a certain score or higher should see a psychiatrist. I think of my GD scale as something like creating a scale for hunger or tiredness. Saying I'm very hungry is a bit ambiguous, but with a scale it helps to illustrate exactly how hungry I am.

[MissC]

My intention with a GD scale is to provide a point of reference for members, rather than to insinuate that everyone who gets a certain score or higher should see a psychiatrist.

Oh, I understand that... and I wasn't criticizing your efforts. Anything that increases understanding is good. The reference to psychiatry is because of the fact that psychiatrists -- in the cultural context of Western medicine -- invented GD/GID, not because I think you are recommending them.

I wanted to present a completely different angle on the subject: imagine a world where your scale is not necessary! No non-binary child ever need suffer if we can get rid of the idea that there's something wrong with it.

You are a thinker, and don't think I don't realize or appreciate it. I just do not agree that we need to be narrowing and defining a set of rules that I believe should not exist at all. "Boys are this, girls are that, and there's nothing else" being the rule set in question. Your effort is one to more clearly define distinctions; I take a much more laissez-faire approach. In a context where differences are valued, no distinctions are necessary.

That set of rules comes from the Western Judeo-Christian framework -- a framework that centuries ago should have died out. We should have already learned from it and moved on. But it's still there, wreaking havoc on humanity and standing in the way of logic.

[flamesabers]

Miss C,

I agree that a world that lacks stigma for gender nonconformity would be a major improvement. I do think it's important however to factor in the internal dysphoria one may have that is completely independent of external influences. One analogy that comes to mind is a person who feels unhappy with him/herself. Now the person might be feeling bad because of societal pressures and expectations, or the person in question may genuinely feel unsatisfied with his/her life. I think the "be happy with yourself" approach is only feasible when people are truly happy with themselves. Otherwise I think people should strive to find ways to improve themselves and their lives to attain some contentment.

I don't subscribe to any set of religious beliefs. I also favor the mentality with an internal instead of an external locus of control. Trying to blame society for all of one's ills I think can be just as problematic as trying to enforce rules that are either destructive or irrelevant.

Phew, it feels like I did a bit of philosophizing there. You're right, I am a thinker.

[GoneGirl]

Miss C,

I agree that a world that lacks stigma for gender nonconformity would be a major improvement. I do think it's important however to factor in the internal dysphoria one may have that is completely independent of external influences. One analogy that comes to mind is a person who feels unhappy with him/herself. Now the person might be feeling bad because of societal pressures and expectations, or the person in question may genuinely feel unsatisfied with his/her life. I think the "be happy with yourself" approach is only feasible when people are truly happy with themselves. Otherwise I think people should strive to find ways to improve themselves and their lives to attain some contentment.

I don't subscribe to any set of religious beliefs. I also favor the mentality with an internal instead of an external locus of control. Trying to blame society for all of one's ills I think can be just as problematic as trying to enforce rules that are either destructive or irrelevant.

Phew, it feels like I did a bit of philosophizing there. You're right, I am a thinker.

Yeah, I suffered from GD before I knew there was GD...LOL!

Clara

[AnnieBL]

Add in in cultural and timeline variables and things start to get out of hand

Indeed. The perception depends on the cultural framework in which one resides.

In the culture of my raising -- Western Judeo-Christianity -- there isn't even a word, let alone a category, for a two-spirit. There's Adam & Eve... there's a talking snake and seas parting and Balaam's ass and a reincarnated prophet... but no gender nonconformity, no sirree. It would be bad enough just like that, but the rabbis of old apparently saw fit to place some specific prohibitions on crossdressing just to nail that coffin shut, I reckon.

The gender dysphoria in this cultural framework, in my opinion, isn't so much that as it is cognitive dissonance. That is to say, the person finds himself at odds with that which he is presumed to believe. "God made me, but doesn't want me to be this way." Believing two opposite things at once is a sure path to mental anguish or illness -- and indeed disease can arise from this stress.

Then, somewhere in the middle, we could mention the "hijra" of India. While the word may not be perfectly synonymous with "third gender", we could think of it as such. They are a caste that is looked down upon by most, to be sure, but they at least do have a name and a place in the society -- and the modicum of respect one may enjoy without the Judeo-Christian imputation of "sin". Perhaps most importantly, the hijra have not been infected by Western psychiatry. Gender identity disorder? Nah, they just is what they is, man.

And at the other end, we find among yet other cultural frameworks, such as some American Indian tribes, that the two-spirit is a well-respected member of the group. He or she or both or... whatever... will also not infrequently be a holy person, a shaman, a medicine man/woman, a mediator, a spirit-caller. Man-woman and woman-man are special people with special skills. There's simply no call for psychiatry here -- who's going to send the medicine man to a shrink? Gender dysphoria? I can hear the laughter of the Lakota from here.

To come to a point -- each of these three examples could be the same person -- the same boy who is half girl, or whatever the case may be. In one framework, he is bad; a sinner, mentally ill, in need of treatment. In the second, he is accepted as different -- not bad -- and given a place. In the third, he grows up to heal the sick, guide the tribe, and become a respected elder.

I'm not going to come right out and say that psychiatry and its DSM are bullshit... though I could, it is my belief that cultural framework is the more important factor. It is clear to me that the guilt and shame I experienced as a youngster were a result of the of the conflict between me and the cultural framework I grew up in, not because of something intrinsically wrong with my persona. When you teach kids that being unlike the others is wrong, is it any surprise that we get mental problems? What if you had grown up with a different framework, one that celebrates life in all its variety?

We are slowly changing that framework. When the last psychiatrist is hanged, strung up with the guts of the last preacher, that's when, in the immortal words of Garth Brooks, "We Shall Be Free".

And that, Flamesabers... is when your scale will be meaningless.

MissC,

I agree with most of what you say, except the portion starting with the second sentence of your second last paragraph. Life's just not like that. Whatever the framework, changes won't set you free, they will just shift the bars. Whatever profession or type of service provider we are talking about, and not just psychiatrists, a substantial proportion will always consider that since , as they must believe, their (usually overpriced) services are good for you (and too often that more of of their services must be better for you), they will do their best to see your situation as a problem or disorder that can be corrected by their specialty. As for preachers, the decline of traditional religions in our society is largely because the human need to be preached to is satisfied by all sorts of alternative preachers such as dieticians and professional advisers and 'counselors' of various stripes. You obviously are not enamored of the framework in which you were brought up, but I fancy that you might find that alternative frameworks such as those mentioned in your post were just as restrictive in quite different ways.

Most of us are embarrassed by failure to conform adequately to societal norms of behavior, and one definition of humanity says that the human is the only animal whose sense of embarrassment outweighs its sense of self preservation. No wonder that inability to conform to such societal norms of behavior may be dysphoric, even without any understanding of the cause.

Bear in mind also that in our current society psychiatrists and counselors, however much you may object to their characterization of sex/gender variance, may hold the key to accessing the medical technology needed to at least diminishing that variance.

Referring to your comments about hijra, was your use of the word 'man' at the end a comment on the essential ambiguity of the word (all of us, one sex only, one gender only,or nothing to do with either (as in 'chairman')?

[BigDee]

Referring to your comments about hijra, was your use of the word 'man' at the end a comment on the essential ambiguity of the word (all of us, one sex only, one gender only,or nothing to do with either (as in 'chairman')?

I believe that the context here would be the second choice.

Of course, I may very well be wrong. I often am.

BigDave

[MissC]

I think the "be happy with yourself" approach is only feasible when people are truly happy with themselves.

So, you can't be happy until you're happy?

I spent -- wasted -- a lot of my younger years being angry with everyone, everything, the world. In retrospect, it was because I wasn't happy with myself. That alone cost me dearly -- socially, financially, spiritually.

How did I become happy with myself? I just decided to be. It sounds stupid and trite and cheesy... and no doubt will remind everyone of this old skit...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DIETlxquzY

... but I swear it's the truth.

Otherwise I think people should strive to find ways to improve themselves and their lives to attain some contentment.

Abso-fuckin'-lutely. We all have room for improvement.

My polemics are themed this way -- don't depend on someone to tell you you're okay. Don't think a pill or an operation is going to make your life grand. I see it everywhere, and I'm saddened by it.

This reminds me of a big old elephant in the room. The subject came up a few weeks ago about suicide among trans people. What we never seem to talk about is how the suicide rate is STILL just as high among post-ops. I watched a personal acquaintance return from Thailand a bit lighter, and hit the bottle even more heavily. She's circling the drain, and there ain't a damn thing I can do about it.

It may not be easy to fix one's head first... but it's of supreme importance to do so.

[MissC]

Whatever profession or type of service provider we are talking about, and not just psychiatrists, a substantial proportion will always consider that since , as they must believe, their (usually overpriced) services are good for you (and too often that more of of their services must be better for you), they will do their best to see your situation as a problem or disorder that can be corrected by their specialty.

Yes, yes, yes! Exactly! People get angry with the auto mechanic who tries to sell them parts and repairs they don't need... but they refuse to believe their doctor or therapist might do the same thing.

Hell, no one is going to die if they don't use my professional services, so I could say no one *really needs* me... but I like to eat and stay dry and take vacations.

Bear in mind also that in our current society psychiatrists and counselors, however much you may object to their characterization of sex/gender variance, may hold the key to accessing the medical technology needed to at least diminishing that variance.

Yes, in the current society, that would be correct. But as the old saw goes, when all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.

I do not think medical technology is the solution for boys who wear dresses, or girls who want to drive trucks... because I don't believe it's a problem in the first place.

For crying out loud, psychiatry used to tell us that homosexuality was a mental illness. Why does anyone still trust these charlatans? I will beat the drum on this as long as I have to. We've decided the shrinks were wrong about gay people. They're wrong about me, they're wrong about you, and it's high time we quit listening to their bullshit and taking their happy pills.

It's a massive paradigm shift I'm proposing here. Blank slate; we make the world we want.

Referring to your comments about hijra, was your use of the word 'man' at the end a comment on the essential ambiguity of the word (all of us, one sex only, one gender only,or nothing to do with either (as in 'chairman')?

It was the generic use as familiar address. Just picture some old hippy saying that.

[EvaMarie]

MissC I love your attitude

But I do think there is a place for the medical profession in the brave new world we both envision....

Id go so far as to say lots of things for people like me who want to step over the line to the other side are getting much easier and I think it can only get better

[GoneGirl]

I'll say it again. GD is not caused by gender variance as determined at birth. It is caused by being deprived of a means to express one's innate gender identity. Once that restriction is removed, the dysphoria disappears. That is why most bio-females with a strong male gender identity do not suffer from gender dysphoria. In our society they are given ample opportunity to express their male gender identities, by the way they act, dress, and pursue traditional male professions. How many members here who have found a way to express their inner woman are still dysphoric? I submit that dysphoria only exists to the extent that his/her expression is still limited, or he/she has not yet fully found self-acceptance.

Gender dysphoria and transgender identity are not interchangeable conditions.

Clara