[MissC]

It is caused by being deprived of a means to express one's innate gender identity. Once that restriction is removed, the dysphoria disappears.

Pretty much what I've been trying to say, and been attacked for, all along.

Scientifically speaking, since GD is conditional on a social framework rather than being metabolic or vectored, it's not a disease.

Let's go a step further. Since GD is not a disease, and what we are describing as GD comes from social restrictions, shouldn't we be "treating" the cause, rather than the symptoms? In other words, GD is the symptom, not the cause. Treating symptoms, while it is the forte of modern western medicine, is not the correct approach.

Much of the discussion I've read on the subject over the years is much akin to beating your head on the wall continuously and wondering why you have a headache, no matter how much ibuprofen you take. Stop hitting your head on the wall! is my message.

That is why most bio-females with a strong male gender identity do not suffer from gender dysphoria. In our society they are given ample opportunity to express their male gender identities, by the way they act, dress, and pursue traditional male professions.

In a way, yes... women have a slightly easier time with it, but I wouldn't call it "ample opportunity". The difference is hardly night & day. If I look at the extended family that still live within the religious context of my youth, there's really no room for gender variance with the girls, either. I really feel bad for them, because to compare them with the other girls of their own age, it's even worse than it is for the boys.

It's hard to explain exactly what I mean by that... suffice it to say that I'll stipulate girls (in the First World, generally) have a slightly easier time swimming cross-current, but there's a way to go yet.

How many members here who have found a way to express their inner woman are still dysphoric? I submit that dysphoria only exists to the extent that his/her expression is still limited, or he/she has not yet fully found self-acceptance.

Very good way to say it.

I've been reading the experiences of others like us now since the days of dial-up. One thing remarkable in its repeatability... is the more closeted or hen-pecked the individual, the denser will be the "pink fog" and the stronger the desire for the "transition". (Quite a euphemism for surgically altering one's junk there...)

I have learned that a woman can make her man either very glad, or very sad, to be a man... depending on her attitude.

On the other end of that scale are a few of my dear friends who are so far out of the closet, they couldn't find their way back with GPS. They are also open and enthusiastic about sex -- maybe that relates somehow. The enthusiasm for sex, of course, means they wouldn't do anything to jeopardize their ability to enjoy it.

Perhaps I need to do some further study.

[Misty0732]

I'll say it again. GD is not caused by gender variance as determined at birth. It is caused by being deprived of a means to express one's innate gender identity. Once that restriction is removed, the dysphoria disappears. That is why most bio-females with a strong male gender identity do not suffer from gender dysphoria. In our society they are given ample opportunity to express their male gender identities, by the way they act, dress, and pursue traditional male professions. How many members here who have found a way to express their inner woman are still dysphoric? I submit that dysphoria only exists to the extent that his/her expression is still limited, or he/she has not yet fully found self-acceptance.

Gender dysphoria and transgender identity are not interchangeable conditions.

Clara

Clara,

In my case, my GD is not resolved by expressing myself as female. It goes away when I'm on PM. That leads me to believe that my issues are hormonal and chemical in nature. In fact, I have no problem expressing as male when I'm on PM (the cross dressing stops and the desires to be and become more feminine go away altogether).

I'm on day 17 of my PM break. I expect the GD to start returning strongly in the next week or so...

Misty

[AnnieBL]

It is caused by being deprived of a means to express one's innate gender identity. Once that restriction is removed, the dysphoria disappears.

Pretty much what I've been trying to say, and been attacked for, all along.

Scientifically speaking, since GD is conditional on a social framework rather than being metabolic or vectored, it's not a disease.

Let's go a step further. Since GD is not a disease, and what we are describing as GD comes from social restrictions, shouldn't we be "treating" the cause, rather than the symptoms? In other words, GD is the symptom, not the cause. Treating symptoms, while it is the forte of modern western medicine, is not the correct approach.

Much of the discussion I've read on the subject over the years is much akin to beating your head on the wall continuously and wondering why you have a headache, no matter how much ibuprofen you take. Stop hitting your head on the wall! is my message.

That is why most bio-females with a strong male gender identity do not suffer from gender dysphoria. In our society they are given ample opportunity to express their male gender identities, by the way they act, dress, and pursue traditional male professions.

In a way, yes... women have a slightly easier time with it, but I wouldn't call it "ample opportunity". The difference is hardly night & day. If I look at the extended family that still live within the religious context of my youth, there's really no room for gender variance with the girls, either. I really feel bad for them, because to compare them with the other girls of their own age, it's even worse than it is for the boys.

It's hard to explain exactly what I mean by that... suffice it to say that I'll stipulate girls (in the First World, generally) have a slightly easier time swimming cross-current, but there's a way to go yet.

How many members here who have found a way to express their inner woman are still dysphoric? I submit that dysphoria only exists to the extent that his/her expression is still limited, or he/she has not yet fully found self-acceptance.

Very good way to say it.

I've been reading the experiences of others like us now since the days of dial-up. One thing remarkable in its repeatability... is the more closeted or hen-pecked the individual, the denser will be the "pink fog" and the stronger the desire for the "transition". (Quite a euphemism for surgically altering one's junk there...)

I have learned that a woman can make her man either very glad, or very sad, to be a man... depending on her attitude.

On the other end of that scale are a few of my dear friends who are so far out of the closet, they couldn't find their way back with GPS. They are also open and enthusiastic about sex -- maybe that relates somehow. The enthusiasm for sex, of course, means they wouldn't do anything to jeopardize their ability to enjoy it.

Perhaps I need to do some further study.

MissC (and also Clara and Misty)

Again I find myself largely agreeing with you. I had intended replying to Clara's post, but find quoting yours a better vehicle.

Agreed that GD is not a disease, but it is certainly an affliction, and since we exist within our present and existing societal framework, we may be able to push it aside at least for a time utilizing the non-gender variant i.e. masculine portion of our persona if we have enough of it, or we can sublimate it, but at present in our society we can only truly express the feminine portion by presenting as a passable female, which can be difficult to achieve without some degree of 'transition'. By all means strive to improve the societal framework, but we are here, now.

I probably shouldn't raise this, but I steered clear of the issue at the time and I'm definitely not now intending to be contentious, but my own impression was that your choice of thread for the previous most forceful expression of your views was possibly unfortunate. It seemed to me that the OP in that thread was not rejoicing in having a disease (i.e. the common human failing of 'enjoying ill-health') but rather being upbeat about obtaining assistance in endeavoring to deal with GD from what many might consider an unlikely source. If I'm right, you could have been more a victim of backlash from raining on the parade than any strong dissent with your views as such. In any case, I'm glad that you are still with us.

As for the 'man!', what made me query it was its single occurrence at the end of that particular paragraph about hijra.

[GoneGirl]

I'll say it again. GD is not caused by gender variance as determined at birth. It is caused by being deprived of a means to express one's innate gender identity. Once that restriction is removed, the dysphoria disappears. That is why most bio-females with a strong male gender identity do not suffer from gender dysphoria. In our society they are given ample opportunity to express their male gender identities, by the way they act, dress, and pursue traditional male professions. How many members here who have found a way to express their inner woman are still dysphoric? I submit that dysphoria only exists to the extent that his/her expression is still limited, or he/she has not yet fully found self-acceptance.

Gender dysphoria and transgender identity are not interchangeable conditions.

Clara

Clara,

In my case, my GD is not resolved by expressing myself as female. It goes away when I'm on PM. That leads me to believe that my issues are hormonal and chemical in nature. In fact, I have no problem expressing as male when I'm on PM (the cross dressing stops and the desires to be and become more feminine go away altogether).

I'm on day 17 of my PM break. I expect the GD to start returning strongly in the next week or so...

Misty

Misty, I understand your point. There is often a hormonal dimension to finding relief from GD. I, too, found relief from GD when I took PM, due to PM's ability to act as an AA, reducing my testosterone level. Testosterone can cause GD in someone with a significant female gender identity. Early misguided attempts to address MtF GD symptoms by increasing T typically failed, while lowering T caused the GD to recede.

In addition, the estrogen receptors in one's brain are activated by the miroestrol from PM. The female brain portion is now able to function and express itself in various, but not necessarily obvious ways.

When behaviors like masturbation, pornography fascination, crossdressing, etc. disappear when T is lowered, it usually means that these behaviors were substituting or compensating for denied feminine expression of one form or another, but are no longer needed.

In my case, before PM, my crossdressing was fetishistic in nature and used to enhance sex arousal. On PM it is not that at all. It has become purely an expression of my feminine identity in conformance with cultural norms.

Misty, my thought is that on PM your female gender identity does not require presenting as female or feminizing yourself in any way. You may find, however, that there are other ways that your inner woman expresses herself which may be very subtle, and not that subject to condemnation by others.

Keep in mind that the most powerful force depriving you of a means to express your feminine identity derives from with you. PM helps, but you still have to accept the way you are deep within your conscious and subconscious mind.

Clara

[MissC]

[...]at present in our society we can only truly express the feminine portion by presenting as a passable female, which can be difficult to achieve without some degree of 'transition'. By all means strive to improve the societal framework, but we are here, now.

I do see your point, and it is valid. However, I think it's colored somewhat by the fact that you've got a few more decades on Earth than I do. You probably carry some of the social mores and prejudices still, that have long gone out of fashion before I was born. To folks of your age, seeing certain things is still off-putting, whereas for a 20-year-old now, they wouldn't even notice them.

Note, as one example, the attitudes of the 20-somethings to the notion of gay marriage. It's almost universally a shrug and a "so what?"

Point is, the times they are a'changin'. We all prepare the way for the younger generations.

Me, I'm not super "passable" and at 6' barefoot, I'm certainly not invisible. A "passable" voice is rather out of the question -- I sound like Johnny Cash. But I am pretty bold... I present myself how I wish -- which is always neat and well-groomed regardless of whether it's more female, male, or in-between -- and I always hold the expectation that I will be treated with the modicum of respect with which adults should treat each other in a polite society. I've never had anyone give me any kind of trouble, though woe betide anyone who ever did....

I probably shouldn't raise this, but I steered clear of the issue at the time and I'm definitely not now intending to be contentious, but my own impression was that your choice of thread for the previous most forceful expression of your views was possibly unfortunate. [...] If I'm right, you could have been more a victim of backlash from raining on the parade than any strong dissent with your views as such.

Perhaps. But we are now talking about it in a productive fashion, and that's what matters.

There is always backlash when one upsets apple-carts... challenging the conventional "wisdom" of any age inevitably lands one in hot water. But it must be done, if for no other reason than to make sure we've all heard all the possible arguments before making a decision as to the best course of action.

[Misty0732]

In addition, the estrogen receptors in one's brain are activated by the miroestrol from PM. The female brain portion is now able to function and express itself in various, but not necessarily obvious ways.

When behaviors like masturbation, pornography fascination, crossdressing, etc. disappear when T is lowered, it usually means that these behaviors were substituting or compensating for denied feminine expression of one form or another, but are no longer needed.

Misty, my thought is that on PM your female gender identity does not require presenting as female or feminizing yourself in any way. You may find, however, that there are other ways that your inner woman expresses herself which may be very subtle, and not that subject to condemnation by others.

Hi Clara,

I understand your point of view, and mostly agree. I guess I feel you may be over-analyzing somewhat (something that I am often guilty of myself). I do believe that my brain is primarily female, and that it craves estrogen. The absence of estrogen creates a void that leads to certain behaviors (such as cross dressing and the desire to feminize). I think it is the presence of too much testosterone that leads to the other behaviors (masturbation, viewing pornography, etc.). PM solves both of these issues for me... reducing the T and increasing the E. That makes my brain content and all the induced behaviors subside.

That being said, I have to conclude that my GD results from an issue I have had since birth; that is, being born with a female brain and male genitalia. I'm fortunate that PM presents a solution short of transition, since I am too far along in life with too many ties to my "male" identity for transition to be a viable alternative.

I'm now in the 18th day of my PM break. My GD is showing signs of bubbling up (the desire to cross dress is returning).

Thanks you the insights and the great discussion!

Misty

[spanky (aka Lola)]

Flamesabres -

I cannot believe I did not see this before. I think the list is very helpful in characterizing the spectrum of possibilities. Thank you for putting it together!

I am sure there are a lot of nuances, combinations and variations. As for others, my own place on the list varies depending on the day, but I would say I generally fall between 4, 5 and 6. I might have moved to a lower number, but I really do not suffer a lot of sadness or anguish about it all. I am not sure what that means.

spanky

[AnnieBL]

[...]at present in our society we can only truly express the feminine portion by presenting as a passable female, which can be difficult to achieve without some degree of 'transition'. By all means strive to improve the societal framework, but we are here, now.

I do see your point, and it is valid. However, I think it's colored somewhat by the fact that you've got a few more decades on Earth than I do. You probably carry some of the social mores and prejudices still, that have long gone out of fashion before I was born. To folks of your age, seeing certain things is still off-putting, whereas for a 20-year-old now, they wouldn't even notice them.

Note, as one example, the attitudes of the 20-somethings to the notion of gay marriage. It's almost universally a shrug and a "so what?"

Point is, the times they are a'changin'. We all prepare the way for the younger generations.

Me, I'm not super "passable" and at 6' barefoot, I'm certainly not invisible. A "passable" voice is rather out of the question -- I sound like Johnny Cash. But I am pretty bold... I present myself how I wish -- which is always neat and well-groomed regardless of whether it's more female, male, or in-between -- and I always hold the expectation that I will be treated with the modicum of respect with which adults should treat each other in a polite society. I've never had anyone give me any kind of trouble, though woe betide anyone who ever did....

I probably shouldn't raise this, but I steered clear of the issue at the time and I'm definitely not now intending to be contentious, but my own impression was that your choice of thread for the previous most forceful expression of your views was possibly unfortunate. [...] If I'm right, you could have been more a victim of backlash from raining on the parade than any strong dissent with your views as such.

Perhaps. But we are now talking about it in a productive fashion, and that's what matters.

There is always backlash when one upsets apple-carts... challenging the conventional "wisdom" of any age inevitably lands one in hot water. But it must be done, if for no other reason than to make sure we've all heard all the possible arguments before making a decision as to the best course of action.

I'm thinking that possibly I should take exception to your first paragraph of response. It strikes me as, dare I say it, "ageist'. I don't actually recollect whether you have disclosed your age, but accepting that I have a few more decades behind me, I would reckon that I've also had a few more decades than you to recognize and tackle my prejudices, of which I've had many, some a little odd. Yes, seeing certain things is certainly off-putting, but the list of things concerned has kept on changing. Life is a long journey, and the only direction available to us is forwards: any attempt to go backwards is a recipe for real unhappiness. I'm still interested in what lies around the next corner, and if I were to lose that interest I would probably die. Times are indeed changing, but not so fast that while I can take interest, I can't reasonably expect to take much advantage beyond what applies to me here and now. I'm interested in your choice of 'gay marriage' as an example. I think that some of my views on that subject could possibly surprise you, and I do tend to find people of all ages quite resistant (including my sister in law who is a highly qualified psychiatrist, more than thirty years younger than I am, and very narrow minded in her views on that subject).

Moving on to passability, I read you as saying that we should all assert our true gender, and that is consistent with what you say in this post. For myself, being at least somewhat bi-gender, I still don't know what I am supposed to assert, And that assertiveness is one of the (I think masculine) characteristics which is missing in my brainset. PM certainly helps me not to worry about some deviations from societal orthodoxy, but it doesn't make me assertive.

Likewise, upsetting apple carts is not in my nature and I don't see it as a duty of mine, but if you do, I still consider that it is important to be careful and unprejudiced in selecting carts. People can get hurt in the upsets.

[MissC]

I'm thinking that possibly I should take exception to your first paragraph of response. It strikes me as, dare I say it, "ageist'.

My goodness, you could, couldn't you! I certainly didn't mean it that way. I was raised to respect my elders, so please rest assured that it was my way of deferring to your greater length of life experience!

My father was in his mid-40s when I was born; a larger generational gap than most experienced. I'm rather attuned to the phenomenon of how attitudes change from generation to generation.

I don't actually recollect whether you have disclosed your age,

I didn't, previously... I am somewhere between 30 and 40.

Moving on to passability, I read you as saying that we should all assert our true gender, and that is consistent with what you say in this post. For myself, being at least somewhat bi-gender, I still don't know what I am supposed to assert, And that assertiveness is one of the (I think masculine) characteristics which is missing in my brainset. PM certainly helps me not to worry about some deviations from societal orthodoxy, but it doesn't make me assertive.

Now there's something to chew on!

Certainly, not everyone is assertive, and it's not necessarily related to one's sex or gender. In life, there are leaders, followers, and spectators. Leaders are the smallest minority. I suppose humanity would be chaos otherwise.

Likewise, upsetting apple carts is not in my nature and I don't see it as a duty of mine, but if you do, I still consider that it is important to be careful and unprejudiced in selecting carts. People can get hurt in the upsets.

They can... but shouldn't. The sharing of ideas should be logical and dispassionate, untainted by emotion. That's hard to do unless one is Vulcan, of course, but that's the idea.

There is no possible way to write anything of any significance without upsetting someone. There just isn't. You can write so as to not upset one or two or a handful of people... but no matter what you write on the internet, someone is going to be offended. It really truly cannot be helped. No one can be held liable for offended readers... it wouldn't work even if we didn't think free speech was a good idea.

[EvaMarie]

I'll say it again. GD is not caused by gender variance as determined at birth. It is caused by being deprived of a means to express one's innate gender identity. Once that restriction is removed, the dysphoria disappears. That is why most bio-females with a strong male gender identity do not suffer from gender dysphoria. In our society they are given ample opportunity to express their male gender identities, by the way they act, dress, and pursue traditional male professions. How many members here who have found a way to express their inner woman are still dysphoric? I submit that dysphoria only exists to the extent that his/her expression is still limited, or he/she has not yet fully found self-acceptance.

Gender dysphoria and transgender identity are not interchangeable conditions.

Clara

It depends Clara many TS women spend their whole lives transforming themselves into very convincing women and still feel dysphoria no matter what they do to themselves...

Even an individual can be at many different points on a scale at any given time... I used to be quite "manly" and did very well for myself as one... I was content to just CD occasionally and fantasize but live an outwardly very "normal" appearing male existence...

These days though the more femme I get the more I want more... CD to me means trying to present as male these days Wearing womans clothes is just part of who I am.... But I do admit sometimes I get "turned on" not so much sexually but mentally when I notice myself getting more femme...

I think its a brave new world we live in.... By that I mean the ability through modern medicine to change your gender is a relatively new thing...

I hope in the future things advance even further and Id be REALLY happy if they could figure out a way to make my bald head grow hair