[jannet.duff]

I am still considering cycling it, like a cis female needs too.

[ChangeofLife]

I think you'll find the patches only introduce trace amounts into the body. Almost a mcg (microgram), vs a mg (milligram). The reasoning for this is woman sometimes need just a trace of estrogen, vs a MTF, who needs a bolus amount. If you were a female going thru menopause, the patches would work great to level the hormones out. Since so many of the female organs produce estrogen naturally, some even just trace amounts. But for what we're doing, we need a BIG LONG sustained shots of estrogen. I considered patches when starting, and I discarded the idea, since it didn't give me enough of estrogen, strength or duration.

Me, I would be covered in patches lol, there's a body in there somewhere.

Estrogen=The mother of female hormones
Estrodial= the weaker lil sis of mother (approx 1/8th as strong as mother)

Hope this helps

[Katie]

I just bought a dozen Climara Forte patches the 25cm with 7.6mg E that you`re suposed to wear for a week.
I`m wondering what that would be equiv to in Tablets?

I take 8mg EV per day, 2x2mg morning and the same in the evening. if I wore a patch, how many tablets would I need to take to stay on the same dose as now? oh, I go Sublingual too.

I was hoping I could use these as a Back-up in case an order ever got delayed for some reason.

[The First Aria]

I think you'll find the patches only introduce trace amounts into the body. Almost a mcg (microgram), vs a mg (milligram). The reasoning for this is woman sometimes need just a trace of estrogen, vs a MTF, who needs a bolus amount. If you were a female going thru menopause, the patches would work great to level the hormones out. Since so many of the female organs produce estrogen naturally, some even just trace amounts. But for what we're doing, we need a BIG LONG sustained shots of estrogen. I considered patches when starting, and I discarded the idea, since it didn't give me enough of estrogen, strength or duration.

Me, I would be covered in patches lol, there's a body in there somewhere.

Estrogen=The mother of female hormones
Estrodial= the weaker lil sis of mother (approx 1/8th as strong as mother)

Hope this helps

COL:  You are wrong!   Patches equivalent effectiveness is greater in some ways than oral.  My G.D. as well as a white paper from several sources says so.  As I understand it, Estrogen is indeed the strongest, but also is used as an umbrella term for all 3 types of female hormones.  In order of strength:   Estrogen or E1:  Estriol or E2;  Estrodiol or E3.  I would get into the benefits or negatives of each, but why should I when Lotus has done so several times in his "Project X" thread right here on this forum.

For instance, I am on 0.150 patches.  My G.D. told me that is almost the same strength as 4 mgs daily of oral estrogen.  The only difference is it's easier on the metabolism and does not stress the heart and is low on the scale of causing DVT's.  But, the oral has it over patches in the fact that it doesn't activate any path ways in the liver.   Patches are quicker into the blood stream if used correctly than oral, unless sublingually.  If needed or interested, I can post the URL's to the white papers OR, you can look up yourself by just "Googling" it.

[The First Aria]

I just bought a dozen Climara Forte patches the 25cm with 7.6mg E that you`re suposed to wear for a week.
I`m wondering what that would be equiv to in Tablets?

I take 8mg EV per day, 2x2mg morning and the same in the evening. if I wore a patch, how many tablets would I need to take to stay on the same dose as now? oh, I go Sublingual too.

I was hoping I could use these as a Back-up in case an order ever got delayed for some reason.

Katie, 0.10 patch is equivalent to about 1.8 mgs of oral.  If you are doing most or all sublingually, please be careful.  I have never heard of good doctor's that would o.k. such a hot dose.  Many G.D's shoot for about 180 - 200 in the blood stream of MTF's.  Anything over that and the concerns for heard attacks, liver, pancreas and DVT's jump sky high.

My G.D. told me that he has several patients at or above 180 using about 6 to 8 mgs oral.  And that is STRICTLY oral, not sublingual.  I have been on 0.150 mg patches for about 1 month now, I have put an inch on my hips and almost that on my butt.  My breasts have filled up some, to the point that I am wearing 38 D bra 90 % of the time.  The other 10% it's 40 C.  So, other than being naturally slow, I am making progress.  AND I am NOT hanging 4 -10 patches off my ass to do so.  LOL

[ChangeofLife]

This is what we were discussing. Estradot 50 micrograms/24 hours  https://www.medicines.org.uk/emc/medicine/32039

5 cm2 patch containing 0.78 mg estradiol (as hemihydrate) with a release rate of 50 micrograms estradiol per 24 hours

Micrograms come nowhere close to milligrams...The standard for estrogen treatment for MTF is 6-8mgs daily. WITH an anti androgen, sometimes even with a 10mg injection 1/2 weeks. I can dig up physician docs treatment to prove this if need be. I'm glad you're responding to a micro gram solution, but I suspect it's also the other stuff being used...

[ChangeofLife]

Just to show a general medical approved baseline for MTF. The patches are included, but as a supplement to pure Estrogen AND injectable AND anti androgen.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5182227/
h**ps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5182227/

[Lotus]

I’m not on the patch, currently @ 6mg of E2 daily, but knowing the transdermal patch doesn’t impair GH/IGF-1 in the liver?...shoot girlfriend(s)  the patch is actually better suited for MTF hrt. Now, somatostatin inhibits hGH/IGF-1 in liver, there’s a supplement that inhibits somatostatin thereby stimulating GH/IGF-1....which is what we want in HRT/NBE...it’s actually what I consider is the missing ingredient for MTF HRT. We need youthful levels of GH/IGF-1..as we know puberty is a growth phase, so we can consider beginning HRT puts us smack dab back at a puberty stage, so let’s take advantage of it. Muscle wasting is not an ideal way to feminize, think lean tissue, I believe you’ll see that ever wanted hourglass take shape over the wasting of muscle a lot quicker, and healthier. Intermittent fasting will (12-24hrs) help improve receptor sensitivity...which is lost over time.

Estrogen regulation of growth hormone action.
Review article
Leung KC, et al. Endocr Rev. 2004.
Show full citation
Abstract
GH plays a pivotal role in regulating body growth and development, which is modulated by sex steroids. A close interplay between estrogen and GH leads to attainment of gender-specific body composition during puberty. The physiological basis of the interaction is not well understood. Most previous studies have focused on the effects of estrogen on GH secretion. There is also strong evidence that estrogen modulates GH action independent of secretion. Oral but not transdermal administration of estrogen impairs the metabolic action of GH in the liver, causing a fall in IGF-I production and fat oxidation. This results in a loss of lean tissue and a gain of body fat in postmenopausal women and an impairment of GH effect in hypopituitary women on GH replacement. The negative metabolic sequelae are potentially important because of the widespread use of oral estrogen and estrogen-related compounds. Estrogen affects GH action at the level of receptor expression and signaling. More recently, estrogen has been shown to inhibit Janus kinase/signal transducer and activator of transcription signaling by GH via the induction of suppressor of cytokine signaling-2, a protein inhibitor for cytokine signaling. This represents a novel paradigm of steroid regulation of cytokine receptors and is likely to have significance for a diverse range of cytokine function.
https://academic.oup.com/edrv/article-lo....2003-0035

GH / IGF-1 (growth hormones) in combination with estradiol helps developed TEB's (terminal end buds)....the essential part of mammary ductal system, (terminal ends buds are likely the first stage of breast growth in puberty), though I believe you can still grow (or mature) TEB's in adulthood. 

GH improves estrogen receptors, E2 also regulates ERβ/PI3-K pathway.

Somatostatin inhibits hGH/IGF-1, in other words, somatostatin sabotages meaningful growth of IGF-1. Choline inhibits somatostatin making way for GH to stimulate IGF-1, a dose of 500-600mg creates a 4 fold increase...see choline study.
http://www.breastnexus.org/showthread.php?tid=28232

[ChangeofLife]

IMO using the patch with some naturals, like herbal and such would probably show "something". I wouldn't have any qualms about doing it, but by itself, not very effective imo. Using it with Etabs, like you admit you are, is the ticket. Think of patches as "helpers', to help mother E to do it's job. But by "itself" isn't strong enough to really do the job. YMMV. If you toss PM or WP in, or have used BO and it was effective in the past, same thing, "something" will happen.

BTW injectables bypass the liver as well, as well as sublingual use of tabs.

[The First Aria]

IMO using the patch with some naturals, like herbal and such would probably show "something". I wouldn't have any qualms about doing it, but by itself, not very effective imo. Using it with Etabs, like you admit you are, is the ticket. Think of patches as "helpers', to help mother E to do it's job. But by "itself" isn't strong enough to really do the job. YMMV. If you toss PM or WP in, or have used BO and it was effective in the past, same thing, "something" will happen.

BTW injectables bypass the liver as well, as well as sublingual use of tabs.

Oh well, can't fix this "knowledgeable person".  All I know is that the "almost" estrogen (pm) tends to block real E. (Estradiol) from receptors.  How do I know??  Simple, my G.D. warned me that I would be slow to see any body change do to that fact.  He thought 2 - 3 months.  Luckily for me, it was only about 1 month them I started to re-bud and see about 1/8 - 1/4" growth every month from there out.