Hi everyone,
I was going to respond to a post I made earlier in the week about boys with gynecomastia (Hi Pansy-Mae - I am doing fine thank you), but I saw this post by DivaChick32 and I thought I had better add my thoughts.
DivaChick - I used to post on this forum. I am an MTF transsexual who is still in transition so I thought I could offer you some thoughts on what you are proposing. I know you say you do not want to undergo a 'full transition', but think about the following.
1. The therapist - this is the best thing you can do. Be completely open with the therapist and explain your situation, but even so it is unlikely that you will be given HRT straightaway. There is usually a wait of some months before you can start HRT. Have you demonstrated any commitment to transition? Have you legally changed your name? Have you had laser hair removal? Have you started living a female? If not then the therapist may decide that you are not Gender Dysphoric and therefore may not prescribe hormones.
2. Speed of change - synthetic hormones are stronger than PM, but taking them will not necessarily result in a faster transition. Hormones are very much 'on' - 'off' switches. Above a certain concentration they make little difference. What they do is activate changes in your body. These changes take place at whatever speed your body wants to go at. It makes no difference whether it is synthetic or PM. You are looking at a 3 to 5 year process here.
3. I was completely sterile after 6 months on PM. I know of one MTF who was sterile after less than 2 weeks of synthetics. Erections are still possible because arousal happens in your head, not in your scrotum, but you will be firing blanks. Have you discussed this with your partner?
4. I think you have not considered the effects of full feminisation. Not everyone gets decent hips or a bigger bottom. Your skin thins, you feel the cold more. You will likely have changes in your eyesight, your night vision may deteriorate, your body hair may not fall out.
5. The US state you live in is known for being very T* unfriendly. If you want I can put you in touch with an MTF living in your state who can give you details on what to expect from life when you stand out from the crowd and you WILL stand out. Many of these changes cannot be hidden easily. Some cannot be hidden at all. What will you do if you grow a pair of D-cup breasts? To be fair it is a danger whether you use PM or synthetics but what is your answer to that question?
These are questions you need to address whether you intend to transition or not. This is too serious a change to make without full consideration.
One final point (and I can only really speak from a UK perspective). The article that Bryony linked to "So you want to be a t-girl?" scared the hell out of me when I read some years ago. As someone in transition I can say that many of the points in that article are accurate even though the tone of the article strikes me as very angry, bitter and negative. Things have got better over the years and people are more accepting but being trans - or just being visibly different - still causes a lot of difficulty.
Beverley.
I was going to respond to a post I made earlier in the week about boys with gynecomastia (Hi Pansy-Mae - I am doing fine thank you), but I saw this post by DivaChick32 and I thought I had better add my thoughts.
(31-05-2012, 04:31 PM)Diva chick 32 Wrote: Hello All!
I have gotten in contact with a local therapist to get started on HRT here in a month or so maybe a little longer.what i want to ask is will there be a difference from the real deal and PM in comparison to potency? in other words,will it be stronger than PM? im still gonna think about it before i make the final choice about it. I am excited though
Diva Chick 32....
DivaChick - I used to post on this forum. I am an MTF transsexual who is still in transition so I thought I could offer you some thoughts on what you are proposing. I know you say you do not want to undergo a 'full transition', but think about the following.
1. The therapist - this is the best thing you can do. Be completely open with the therapist and explain your situation, but even so it is unlikely that you will be given HRT straightaway. There is usually a wait of some months before you can start HRT. Have you demonstrated any commitment to transition? Have you legally changed your name? Have you had laser hair removal? Have you started living a female? If not then the therapist may decide that you are not Gender Dysphoric and therefore may not prescribe hormones.
2. Speed of change - synthetic hormones are stronger than PM, but taking them will not necessarily result in a faster transition. Hormones are very much 'on' - 'off' switches. Above a certain concentration they make little difference. What they do is activate changes in your body. These changes take place at whatever speed your body wants to go at. It makes no difference whether it is synthetic or PM. You are looking at a 3 to 5 year process here.
3. I was completely sterile after 6 months on PM. I know of one MTF who was sterile after less than 2 weeks of synthetics. Erections are still possible because arousal happens in your head, not in your scrotum, but you will be firing blanks. Have you discussed this with your partner?
4. I think you have not considered the effects of full feminisation. Not everyone gets decent hips or a bigger bottom. Your skin thins, you feel the cold more. You will likely have changes in your eyesight, your night vision may deteriorate, your body hair may not fall out.
5. The US state you live in is known for being very T* unfriendly. If you want I can put you in touch with an MTF living in your state who can give you details on what to expect from life when you stand out from the crowd and you WILL stand out. Many of these changes cannot be hidden easily. Some cannot be hidden at all. What will you do if you grow a pair of D-cup breasts? To be fair it is a danger whether you use PM or synthetics but what is your answer to that question?
These are questions you need to address whether you intend to transition or not. This is too serious a change to make without full consideration.
One final point (and I can only really speak from a UK perspective). The article that Bryony linked to "So you want to be a t-girl?" scared the hell out of me when I read some years ago. As someone in transition I can say that many of the points in that article are accurate even though the tone of the article strikes me as very angry, bitter and negative. Things have got better over the years and people are more accepting but being trans - or just being visibly different - still causes a lot of difficulty.
Beverley.
Hi Beverley!
So are you going to change your status from "Gone" to "Visiting" ?
All of what you say makes a lot of sense.
However, regarding the sterility issue, I thought the most likely explanation was that you killed them all off by tucking? historical post
That scrotum is there for a reason, after all... see:fertility
Regarding PM,
There a paper here which shows that mating efficiency of rats only starts to be impaired at 100 mg/kg, which is about twice my (rather high) dose, and seems to be reversible.
(We don't want the young'uns to panic!)
B.
PS you miss us really, don't you?
So are you going to change your status from "Gone" to "Visiting" ?
All of what you say makes a lot of sense.
However, regarding the sterility issue, I thought the most likely explanation was that you killed them all off by tucking? historical post
That scrotum is there for a reason, after all... see:fertility
Regarding PM,
There a paper here which shows that mating efficiency of rats only starts to be impaired at 100 mg/kg, which is about twice my (rather high) dose, and seems to be reversible.
(We don't want the young'uns to panic!)
B.
PS you miss us really, don't you?
(01-06-2012, 08:51 PM)bryony Wrote: Hi Beverley!
So are you going to change your status from "Gone" to "Visiting" ?
All of what you say makes a lot of sense.
However, regarding the sterility issue, I thought the most likely explanation was that you killed them all off by tucking? historical post
That scrotum is there for a reason, after all... see:fertility
Regarding PM,
There a paper here which shows that mating efficiency of rats only starts to be impaired at 100 mg/kg, which is about twice my (rather high) dose, and seems to be reversible.
(We don't want the young'uns to panic!)
B.
PS you miss us really, don't you?
Yeah Incorrect tucking or tucking for to long of a period in warm/hot weather will do that.
Hi Diva,
one last thought. I had a look and it seems that you started taking PM at the end of Feb/beginning March. That's only 3 months!
I can't speak for all the other herbs you've been taking - there may be interactions, who knows?
However, I've just posted my 9-month growth pictures. All I've taken since Sep last year was PM (for growth) I've also taken Butea Superba and Maca to keep the male parts going.
I haven't used any kind of cycle method. The important thing is that once a certain dosage hit me, it turned off my need for anything - breasts, feminising, clothes etc.
I think your frustration is symptomatic of your gender dysphoria, and I feel that if you use PM as therapy for that, the rest will follow.
I'm firmly convinced that most MTF transitions happen mainly because the pattern in the medical orthodoxy is (or used to be) to get the clients into a feminine role before the calming effects of the prescribed medication take effect.
The point is, you can, like me, use a herbal solution so that you can actually cope with your condition without resorting to big pharma and surgery.
I suggest you persevere with PM; take a gradually increasing dose starting at 1-2g/day and then over a period of weeks go up as high as 3-4g per day.
For me, 3g was the magic figure. After 2-3 days on that dose, I had the most amazing experience. I recall that I was in the shower at the time. It was like a light had turned on - everything was brighter, more colourful and real. At the same time, my whole body felt lighter and I couldn't stop smiling!
Unless I am a totally idiosyncratic case, or your problem isn't caused by congential problems of insufficient androgen during foetal development, you will care much less about how long it takes you to grow. But, at that dose, results are almost guaranteed... but any treatment will take you a few years to max out.
Hope this helps.
Bryony
PS you might think "but I dont want to stop the desire to dress up and feminise my body! Well, this might not happen, but it might whatever hormones you take. It's a well known effect on some TSs that the desire diminishes when the endocrine balance of the feminine brain is restored. But it's better to find that out on PM than on an HRT regimen!
one last thought. I had a look and it seems that you started taking PM at the end of Feb/beginning March. That's only 3 months!
I can't speak for all the other herbs you've been taking - there may be interactions, who knows?
However, I've just posted my 9-month growth pictures. All I've taken since Sep last year was PM (for growth) I've also taken Butea Superba and Maca to keep the male parts going.
I haven't used any kind of cycle method. The important thing is that once a certain dosage hit me, it turned off my need for anything - breasts, feminising, clothes etc.
I think your frustration is symptomatic of your gender dysphoria, and I feel that if you use PM as therapy for that, the rest will follow.
I'm firmly convinced that most MTF transitions happen mainly because the pattern in the medical orthodoxy is (or used to be) to get the clients into a feminine role before the calming effects of the prescribed medication take effect.
The point is, you can, like me, use a herbal solution so that you can actually cope with your condition without resorting to big pharma and surgery.
I suggest you persevere with PM; take a gradually increasing dose starting at 1-2g/day and then over a period of weeks go up as high as 3-4g per day.
For me, 3g was the magic figure. After 2-3 days on that dose, I had the most amazing experience. I recall that I was in the shower at the time. It was like a light had turned on - everything was brighter, more colourful and real. At the same time, my whole body felt lighter and I couldn't stop smiling!
Unless I am a totally idiosyncratic case, or your problem isn't caused by congential problems of insufficient androgen during foetal development, you will care much less about how long it takes you to grow. But, at that dose, results are almost guaranteed... but any treatment will take you a few years to max out.
Hope this helps.
Bryony
PS you might think "but I dont want to stop the desire to dress up and feminise my body! Well, this might not happen, but it might whatever hormones you take. It's a well known effect on some TSs that the desire diminishes when the endocrine balance of the feminine brain is restored. But it's better to find that out on PM than on an HRT regimen!
This post was last modified: 02-06-2012, 05:38 PM by bryony.
Bryony, Lenneth,
At the time I made the post Bryony linked to I thought tucking was the culprit, but I had a fertility test recently and they said I have NO sperm at all - I am aziospermic (or some such). Low sperm is less than 20 million per sample, but I had none. Not dead sperm, no sperm. I have been told that tucking was unlikely to be the cause. That leaves hormones and PM.
No. I am not really visiting. I saw that gynecomastia story in the newspaper and I thought of everyone here so I posted a link. When I was checking to see if anyone had replies I looked at some of the other postings and read some of Diva Chick's history which worried me. I think that Diva Chick does not understand the consequences of what could happen, nor the fact that no matter how much you pump yourself full of hormones / phytoestrogens, your body will only grow at the speed your body grows at.
Ironically, if DivaChick gets on to an HRT program (and I am not convinced that will happen) then she may wind up on a LOWER dose than what PM provides. They start you very low for 3 months and measure your levels and then slowly increase it. Going on HRT may produce slower results.
But the real question is "Does Diva Chick have Gender Dysphoria?". I do and I have been clinically diagnosed and I am under constant medical and pyschological evaluation. I even have a social worker assigned to me to ensure that I can handle the social aspects of my transition. From reading DivaChick's posts I am not convinced she is Gender Dysphoric. Nonetheless seeing a therapist is the very best thing that DivaChick can do to see what she really needs to do and to find out what is driving her.
Bryony said "(they have a tick-box mentality - TS = SRS)". I can see why you think that but let me tell you that the view from inside the process is very, very different. It is very easy to fall OUT of the programme but these days the professionals are very aware that full transition is not the goal of every TS and that there are shades of transition. In my case I will go all the way but many do not. Two thirds of the TS's I have met have elected not to go for SRS. After all, who checks what is in your underwear?
As for missing you all, I do worry about some people on here. Some seem to think that this is dial-a-boob and they will have a B cup for a couple of months and then they can get rid of their boobs when they become inconvenient or boring. Some others seem to think that if you guzzle everything than you will have boobs by next week. The "hard core" of you (if I may use that term) are sensible enough to understand the consequences and act accordingly with sensible, cautious dosages, but when Bryony said about playing "Russian Roulette" - well, that comment is true. These things can damage you and some of them can kill you and some people seem to have very unrealistic expectations and that is dangerous.
I have already admitted (long ago) that I do not understand why anyone would want to partly feminise and remain male. It makes no sense to me but I guess that is why I am TS rather than MWB (Man With Boobs). If I stay here I will only wind up arguing with people and upsetting people and I have no wish to do that. It is not up to me to tell any of you how to live your lives and my path has diverged from the MWB path. My future is a female one and I am so happy with that and I am completely comfortable with it too so as time goes by we have less and less in common. So yes, I do care about you all and I enjoyed my time here on this board and I do think about you all, but I have to put this behind me. I am no longer on any internet forum as I now get all my answers from the doctors and from the other TS ladies I share my life with. I have moved on somewhat because I have all the answers I need at this point and I just have to get on with living. The kids still go to school, the cat still needs fed and I still have to buy the groceries and mow the lawn. I am making new female friends and being accepted by them and the sense of belonging is utterly europhic. It is so different from having male friends that I cannot describe the difference in any meaningful way. I have no interest in being male, none at all.
And yet, the odd thing about being TS is how little changes. In one respect nothing changes at all. Your life is still there and you still have to do everything you did before, but the inner change - knowing you are female - is beyond price and I cannot describe the contentment it brings. Being TS is not looking like a beauty queen or even looking like a woman. it is about knowing that you are female and feeling that physical feminity and being socialised as female but life still carries on.
I hope I have not upset any of you because that is not my intention but if I have misunderstood you or upset anyone then I apologise without reservation. I just want you to understand why I have posted what I did and why this is not really the correct forum for me to be on.
I may still call back from time to time - I guess it all depends on how things go and what mood I am in. In any case good luck to all of you and please stay safe.
Love
Beverley
At the time I made the post Bryony linked to I thought tucking was the culprit, but I had a fertility test recently and they said I have NO sperm at all - I am aziospermic (or some such). Low sperm is less than 20 million per sample, but I had none. Not dead sperm, no sperm. I have been told that tucking was unlikely to be the cause. That leaves hormones and PM.
(01-06-2012, 08:51 PM)bryony Wrote: So are you going to change your status from "Gone" to "Visiting" ?
...
PS you miss us really, don't you?
No. I am not really visiting. I saw that gynecomastia story in the newspaper and I thought of everyone here so I posted a link. When I was checking to see if anyone had replies I looked at some of the other postings and read some of Diva Chick's history which worried me. I think that Diva Chick does not understand the consequences of what could happen, nor the fact that no matter how much you pump yourself full of hormones / phytoestrogens, your body will only grow at the speed your body grows at.
Ironically, if DivaChick gets on to an HRT program (and I am not convinced that will happen) then she may wind up on a LOWER dose than what PM provides. They start you very low for 3 months and measure your levels and then slowly increase it. Going on HRT may produce slower results.
But the real question is "Does Diva Chick have Gender Dysphoria?". I do and I have been clinically diagnosed and I am under constant medical and pyschological evaluation. I even have a social worker assigned to me to ensure that I can handle the social aspects of my transition. From reading DivaChick's posts I am not convinced she is Gender Dysphoric. Nonetheless seeing a therapist is the very best thing that DivaChick can do to see what she really needs to do and to find out what is driving her.
Bryony said "(they have a tick-box mentality - TS = SRS)". I can see why you think that but let me tell you that the view from inside the process is very, very different. It is very easy to fall OUT of the programme but these days the professionals are very aware that full transition is not the goal of every TS and that there are shades of transition. In my case I will go all the way but many do not. Two thirds of the TS's I have met have elected not to go for SRS. After all, who checks what is in your underwear?
As for missing you all, I do worry about some people on here. Some seem to think that this is dial-a-boob and they will have a B cup for a couple of months and then they can get rid of their boobs when they become inconvenient or boring. Some others seem to think that if you guzzle everything than you will have boobs by next week. The "hard core" of you (if I may use that term) are sensible enough to understand the consequences and act accordingly with sensible, cautious dosages, but when Bryony said about playing "Russian Roulette" - well, that comment is true. These things can damage you and some of them can kill you and some people seem to have very unrealistic expectations and that is dangerous.
I have already admitted (long ago) that I do not understand why anyone would want to partly feminise and remain male. It makes no sense to me but I guess that is why I am TS rather than MWB (Man With Boobs). If I stay here I will only wind up arguing with people and upsetting people and I have no wish to do that. It is not up to me to tell any of you how to live your lives and my path has diverged from the MWB path. My future is a female one and I am so happy with that and I am completely comfortable with it too so as time goes by we have less and less in common. So yes, I do care about you all and I enjoyed my time here on this board and I do think about you all, but I have to put this behind me. I am no longer on any internet forum as I now get all my answers from the doctors and from the other TS ladies I share my life with. I have moved on somewhat because I have all the answers I need at this point and I just have to get on with living. The kids still go to school, the cat still needs fed and I still have to buy the groceries and mow the lawn. I am making new female friends and being accepted by them and the sense of belonging is utterly europhic. It is so different from having male friends that I cannot describe the difference in any meaningful way. I have no interest in being male, none at all.
And yet, the odd thing about being TS is how little changes. In one respect nothing changes at all. Your life is still there and you still have to do everything you did before, but the inner change - knowing you are female - is beyond price and I cannot describe the contentment it brings. Being TS is not looking like a beauty queen or even looking like a woman. it is about knowing that you are female and feeling that physical feminity and being socialised as female but life still carries on.
I hope I have not upset any of you because that is not my intention but if I have misunderstood you or upset anyone then I apologise without reservation. I just want you to understand why I have posted what I did and why this is not really the correct forum for me to be on.
I may still call back from time to time - I guess it all depends on how things go and what mood I am in. In any case good luck to all of you and please stay safe.
Love
Beverley
(03-06-2012, 09:27 PM)beverley.rose Wrote: Bryony said "(they have a tick-box mentality - TS = SRS)". I can see why you think that but let me tell you that the view from inside the process is very, very different. It is very easy to fall OUT of the programme but these days the professionals are very aware that full transition is not the goal of every TS and that there are shades of transition.
well, the So-Called Professionals in the usa have yet to reach that point...
(03-06-2012, 09:27 PM)beverley.rose Wrote: And yet, the odd thing about being TS is how little changes. In one respect nothing changes at all. Your life is still there and you still have to do everything you did before, but the inner change - knowing you are female - is beyond price and I cannot describe the contentment it brings. Being TS is not looking like a beauty queen or even looking like a woman. it is about knowing that you are female and feeling that physical feminity and being socialised as female but life still carries on.
take that then insert being a synthesis of both male and female and you will understand at least some (if not most) of us.
(03-06-2012, 09:27 PM)beverley.rose Wrote: I hope I have not upset any of you because that is not my intention but if I have misunderstood you or upset anyone then I apologise without reservation. I just want you to understand why I have posted what I did and why this is not really the correct forum for me to be on.
No upsets at all, and misunderstandings are a part of life.
(03-06-2012, 09:27 PM)beverley.rose Wrote: I may still call back from time to time - I guess it all depends on how things go and what mood I am in.
Please do!
(03-06-2012, 09:27 PM)beverley.rose Wrote: I have been told that tucking was unlikely to be the cause.
That's surprising, as it is well known that undescended testes causes sterility if not testicular cancer. I suppose the questions are:
a) did you tuck into your body cavity
b) how long did you do it for? all day, or just a few hours
Quote:That leaves hormones and PM.
Ok... I note you didn't say "That leaves PM", so I'm guessing that you were on prescription hormones for a while before testing?
If so the combination of anti-androgens and estrogen is more likely to cause sterility, from what I've read.
Did you look at the paper with the rat testing? PM alone didn't affect their fertility at equivalent dosage levels.
B.
Hello All.
after reading over all this info the past few days.I have decided that HRT is out.not only is it to much money,but the health risks are just not worth it.my life comes first.I started thinking about it while on my first break from PM,now that it is back in my system good those thoughts are gone. am having pains again to I want to thank all of you for the reply's I know they were for my own good. @beverley.rose thank you for your very good insight. Plus nothing you posted upset me. I respect your thoughts and opinions. hope to see you back every now and then. again,thanks everyone for your post and insights! it is much appreciated.
Diva Chick 32....
after reading over all this info the past few days.I have decided that HRT is out.not only is it to much money,but the health risks are just not worth it.my life comes first.I started thinking about it while on my first break from PM,now that it is back in my system good those thoughts are gone. am having pains again to
I want to thank all of you for the reply's I know they were for my own good. @beverley.rose thank you for your very good insight. Plus nothing you posted upset me. I respect your thoughts and opinions. hope to see you back every now and then. again,thanks everyone for your post and insights! it is much appreciated.Diva Chick 32....
Beverly.rose, it was very nice to read your posts, and in particular the lengthy one in this thread. It makes me feel good inside to hear you are having such great success with moving on from this stage. It was a stepping stone for you, and it is truly heart-warming to hear you are doing so well at adapting.
We all benefit from hearing about your experiences. Even those who challenge them do, please don't let it put you off visiting us once in a while. I for one am fine with just hearing how things have gone for you and don't need to ask you to re-evaluate parts of it for me. I am certain you do plenty of evaluating and re-evaluating. Your post tone certainly sounds like you are fully committed to your path. It sounds like much of your anxiety and many of your doubts are significantly resolved and that is wonderful.
I do agree that your trajectory in this takes you farther and farther from us as far as your goals and processes. But I hope you don't feel you have to distance yourself from those of us staying in the non-binary freak zone. We will likely always share at least the emotional issues arising from not being one of the apparently happy binary sexual entities. I do understand that you need to move forward and not live in the past.
I spend a lot less time on the forums and websites myself these days. I think it is because in my own much smaller way, I have achieved what I set out to achieve. Other than the social piece of it, I also have all the answers I need and people who don't want to read historical posts (not ancient history, just the last month's worth for current info and thinking, folks!) no longer entice me into repeating what has been said many times. I do sometimes find some emotional support in reading about others who have similar troubles to myself but let's face it, there really is a wide spectrum of issues, desires, and perceptions in our group. It's actually one of those awesome aspects of us as a group.
I occasionally think about doing up an FAQ for our forum section but then there would be the maintenance part of it which I'm not sure I want to commit to. Does the forum software even provide a mechanism for authoring and maintaining an FAQ, or would it just wind up as a sticky post?
We all benefit from hearing about your experiences. Even those who challenge them do, please don't let it put you off visiting us once in a while. I for one am fine with just hearing how things have gone for you and don't need to ask you to re-evaluate parts of it for me. I am certain you do plenty of evaluating and re-evaluating. Your post tone certainly sounds like you are fully committed to your path. It sounds like much of your anxiety and many of your doubts are significantly resolved and that is wonderful.
I do agree that your trajectory in this takes you farther and farther from us as far as your goals and processes. But I hope you don't feel you have to distance yourself from those of us staying in the non-binary freak zone. We will likely always share at least the emotional issues arising from not being one of the apparently happy binary sexual entities. I do understand that you need to move forward and not live in the past.
I spend a lot less time on the forums and websites myself these days. I think it is because in my own much smaller way, I have achieved what I set out to achieve. Other than the social piece of it, I also have all the answers I need and people who don't want to read historical posts (not ancient history, just the last month's worth for current info and thinking, folks!) no longer entice me into repeating what has been said many times. I do sometimes find some emotional support in reading about others who have similar troubles to myself but let's face it, there really is a wide spectrum of issues, desires, and perceptions in our group. It's actually one of those awesome aspects of us as a group.
I occasionally think about doing up an FAQ for our forum section but then there would be the maintenance part of it which I'm not sure I want to commit to. Does the forum software even provide a mechanism for authoring and maintaining an FAQ, or would it just wind up as a sticky post?
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