[pom19]

Okay, this thread seems to have lost some steam, so let me try to revive it a little. Seems to me that we've only scratched the surface about sex before and after the start of our NBE ..............

Clara

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The word addiction is being abused much these days, specially "addiction to sex". I believe the reason lies beneath the statement that "You fear what you don't understand". It is mainly fabricated by organized groups that do not understand sexuality, a subject so complex and obscure by nature.
No Clara, I believe you were not addicted to sex. How I know that 'cause your experience is very much similar to mine. So rest in peace, that you are ok, and you are in a state of bless that most are not. Actually my thoughts these days are how can we teach an average male to experience this state of bless, and free him from his present bondage. I am working on it.

[PattiJT]

Clara,

I made some comments recently regarding the notion expressed by many here, and maybe yourself as well, that they just want to be "men with breasts". It appears that many of those people are realizing, the further they go with this, that they were somewhat in denial. More and more, the comments here are along the line of "now if I can just add this, or get this too, etc. Voice adjustment? Seems that's a good bit past the "men with breasts" stage. I was only saying that we need to be realistic, and that extremely few, if any, are going to just settle for breasts, they probably just don't know it yet, or are unwilling to admit it. Not saying it's a bad thing, it's just something that needs to be faced.
In your case, could it be that instead of being "addicted to sex", that rather it was an "obsession with sex"? Either way, by many of your comments, it seems that you, and others, are exchanging one addiction/obsession for another. While you are stating that you are no longer addicted/obsessed with sex, you have seemingly become addicted/obsessed instead with a much more involved level of cross-dressing. You call it cross-dreaming, but it appears that the dreaming is in the past tense, as it is being more and more acted out in real life. I say addicted/obsessed, because many of you have moved beyond the "men with breasts" stage in a very short time. Without trying to be offensive, I do find it somewhat humorous to see how quickly some of you have moved beyond what/who you thought you were. If you stop and think, in the rather short time you've been here, you've gone from thinking that a little bit of boobie growth is all you'd need, to the point where you are already considering figuring out a way to go out in public with a bit of "femmy' appearance. Food for thought, for all of us.

My feminine persona has almost always been of a submissive nature. I was never a very aggressive male. Perhaps my submissiveness was/is a product of the times I grew up in, and the cultural surroundings. It matters not, as I am quite satisfied with being so. the only times I would call my feminine side aggressive, was occasionally in the bedroom with my wife. For about 15 years, I usually wore lingerie, nighties, and wigs to bed, and when I initiated sex play, perhaps that could be called aggressive? (I have to admit, she was not overly pleased when I wore a garter belt and stockings to bed, so laid off of that). She was also happy when the breasts came in, so I didn't need to wear a bra to bed. She has a thing about playing with my nipples, and a bra just got in the way. Now, being post-menopausal, she has little interest in sex. We've only become closer regardless. and I still have a vast supply of nightgowns that I'll never completely use up. (Or quit buying).
I've never in my life looked at porn from the traditional male view. I always related with the female side. Still do. However, now when I look at photos, I much prefer seeing attractive non-pre-op, non-silicone TG ladies, (not the overly boobified shemales) receiving sex from men. That may be because even though I have personal changes planned, I still plan on keeping my "little friend", or as my wife calls him, my "little gentleman". Guess that makes me a bit unusual. I is what I is.
Sorry for the rambling, it's probably still a little bit of anesthesia.

[Samantha Rogers]

Patti, I am a little confused by your comment. You referred to the "feminine voice" thread I started, so I must assume you are referring to me. But, if so, either my previous comments have been misleading or misunderstood. I apologize if the error was mine. Honestly, after all this time I cannot remember a lot of the comments I have posted...LOL. I do remember threads and comments from over the years made by others (Bryony comes to mind), which were along the lines of "men with breasts", but I am not certain how that generalization made by others would apply to me. As a slow process starting in childhood, I have been exploring and trying to understand my feminine side for what seems a lifetime, and that process eventually led me here. The past few years have been a continuation of that quest for self understanding. And, yes, the recent months have witnessed an acceleration as participation on this board and interactions with all the wonderful people here (yourself included:) have assisted me in more clearly understanding what drives and afflicts me.
But there is a difference between denying and not yet fully understanding. I have often pointed out my belief that this is a journey. Some may take that to mean simply in breast growth, but for me it is a journey of self discovery and understanding.
I don't fully understand why I was drawn to crossdressing, anymore than I fully understand why I was so prone to losing my temper or acting so judgementally of others when I was younger, or any of a host of other parts of me that I have been able to isolate. But I am continuing to reach for that understanding. Every question leads to another question. They say when you stop growing, you start dying. I still have way too many questions to answer before I die. Maybe it is what drew me into acting...a curiousity and a drive to understand what makes people tick, and by extension, what makes me tick.
Regardless, I am not certain you "got" what I was looking into with the voice thingy. Yes, for many here and elsewhere, who are assured of a plan to transition or live en femme full time, this is a vitally important task. For me, (I do not anticipate ever living full time femme, nor transitioning...but I guess we never know what may come) ....as Clara alluded to in the voice thread, it is more of a question of some kind of self administered psycho therapy. I discussed this a little in the last posting on the thread. I don't know if I will ever dress in public. I don't and I cannot. I cannot foresee where this road goes. But what is important to me is finding a wholeness and a peace. Until I am fully able to allow my feminine side equality with my male side, I doubt I will ever be able to merge them in what I hope will be a unified and healthy person. Both sides have good traits and bad. Right now in this process I am learning more than I can say from a long suppressed Samantha, and most of it is about love, empathy, consideration and forgiveness . These are all qualities previously lacking or in short supply in my male side, and I very much value what Samantha is teaching me. Hopefully the road I am on will make me a better person, regardless of whether that person is who I want to be, or is male or female or somewhere in between. I really hope this is true for all of us.
Thanks for bringing this up.;) The questions that make us think are the opportunities to learn.:)
Hugs

PS- There is another thing about the voice. I am a bit of a perfectionist. When doing woodwork I will make every corner and joint perfect if if they will never be seen...because I need to know they are right. I think, perhaps, there may be a touch of that in wanting my to develop a real feminine voice. Even if I am the only one who ever hears it...Lol

[GoneGirl]

Clara,

I made some comments recently regarding the notion expressed by many here, and maybe yourself as well, that they just want to be "men with breasts". It appears that many of those people are realizing, the further they go with this, that they were somewhat in denial. More and more, the comments here are along the line of "now if I can just add this, or get this too, etc. Voice adjustment? Seems that's a good bit past the "men with breasts" stage. I was only saying that we need to be realistic, and that extremely few, if any, are going to just settle for breasts, they probably just don't know it yet, or are unwilling to admit it. Not saying it's a bad thing, it's just something that needs to be faced.
In your case, could it be that instead of being "addicted to sex", that rather it was an "obsession with sex"? Either way, by many of your comments, it seems that you, and others, are exchanging one addiction/obsession for another. While you are stating that you are no longer addicted/obsessed with sex, you have seemingly become addicted/obsessed instead with a much more involved level of cross-dressing. You call it cross-dreaming, but it appears that the dreaming is in the past tense, as it is being more and more acted out in real life. I say addicted/obsessed, because many of you have moved beyond the "men with breasts" stage in a very short time. Without trying to be offensive, I do find it somewhat humorous to see how quickly some of you have moved beyond what/who you thought you were. If you stop and think, in the rather short time you've been here, you've gone from thinking that a little bit of boobie growth is all you'd need, to the point where you are already considering figuring out a way to go out in public with a bit of "femmy' appearance. Food for thought, for all of us.

Thank you, Patti, for putting into words here what I have many times considered a possibility. It seems unbelievable to me that such a marked change in my personality could happen in such a short time. I've often thought about the possibility that my TG discovery is simply another fetishistic adventure that I will get bored with at some point. Is it?

I've concluded that it is not. I believe there are those whose gender identity mismatch is very strong and is obvious in early life, while there are others who don't recognize it until much later. Subconsciously, it's there affecting one's every minute, but cultural conditioning from an early age keep the TG leanings at bay, suppressed from all expression. These individuals tend to discover and deal with their GD late in life. I believe there are many, many more of the latter type than of the former, and they tend to be heterosexual rather than homosexual in their sexual orientation. I put myself in this latter category.

It's only by looking back with 20/20 hindsight that I can see how my TG subconscious mind was giving clues about my female gender identity throughout my life. You are correct in observing that in a short period of time, I have devoted considerable time and energy to exploring my new found TG personality. I've been very active on this forum, I have significant breast growth to show for my NBE program, and I'm enjoying feminine expression through cross dressing more than I ever thought I would. It appears to be one obsessive behavior substituted for another. But, I don't think it is.

For one thing, I do not exhibit other obsessive compulsive behaviors in my life. I do, however, tend to focus on the things I undertake, manage distraction well, and have good follow through. It's more the case that I'm going through a stage in which I revel in the discovery of my female identity; like I imagine a person who has been confined all his life would revel in being set free.

Only time will tell if my behavior of late is based on a true TG nature, or not. I do expect that, over the coming months, my focus will gradually shift away, the initial excitement will dissipate, and I will settle into some more or less stable balance between my male and female sides. What that state of equilibrium will be is not clear to me, yet.

So, is there a down side to all this? If it turns out to be just another obsession that I grow out of, is there some dire fate that awaits me? Does it really matter the underlying cause of my fem leanings? Am I doing myself psychological harm? Will I ultimately destroy my marriage? Will I eventually want to have my breast removed surgically?

All I know at this time, is I feel happier than I have in many, many years. My marital relationship has improved. I have shed my dependence on porn and solo sex. I feel healthier, less anxious, and am involved with a group of people that I really enjoy talking to. Oh, and my head hair is growing back!

I think people should read up on the psychological condition called autogynephilia (AGP) as theorized by Dr. Ray Blanchard. Read Jack Molay's blog at crossdreamers.com. There's a tremendous amount of information there and excellent analysis and discussion of the flaws in Blanchard's study and conclusions. Jack argues, based on his extensive review of the literature, that AGP (which he calls, the less pejorative term, crossdreaming) is not a sexual fetish, but a true manifestation of a TG condition that is primarily congenital. I'm sure anyone who takes the time will come away with a better understanding of where they fall on the gender spectrum.

I'm eager to read other opinions on the subject.

Hugs,

Clara

[Samantha Rogers]

Clara, just a quick point about the "sex addiction"/masterbation aspect, and the relation to gender issues. When I was heavily engaged in porn/mastertbation, it was always worst when I was in a long stretch where I had no opportunity to dress. The greater the opportunity I had to spend time en femme, the less the need to engage in the other activities. I realize you were not yet cognizant of these aspects of yourself at that time, but do you think the compulsion toward porn etc that some of us went thru was a way to compensate for thwarted or unacknowledged tg impulses? Seems to make sense to me.
Oh, and sorry for carrying Patti's comments off on that long tangent...hee hee.
Hugs

[GoneGirl]

Clara, just a quick point about the "sex addiction"/masterbation aspect, and the relation to gender issues. When I was heavily engaged in porn/mastertbation, it was always worst when I was in a long stretch where I had no opportunity to dress. The greater the opportunity I had to spend time en femme, the less the need to engage in the other activities. I realize you were not yet cognizant of these aspects of yourself at that time, but do you think the compulsion toward porn etc that some of us went thru was a way to compensate for thwarted or unacknowledged tg impulses? Seems to make sense to me.
Oh, and sorry for carrying Patti's comments off on that long tangent...hee hee.
Hugs

Absolutely, Sammie, I truly believe it is societal and self-imposed suppression of our TG nature that causes us to find ways of satisfying a subconscious need to express our feminine side. Cross dressing, porn/masturbation, erotic literature, etc. are ways that many of us have depended on to satisfy this need. I found cross dressing erotically arousing, but impractical from a logistics standpoint, so cross dreaming augmented by visual images of, and fantasizing about being, my ideal woman, along with orgasm through masturbation was my chosen way to cope with, and temporarily satisfy, my TG condition. My inability to enjoy sex as a normal man was also a major indication of my subconscious female identity.

But, I have to say that my cross dressing today has NOTHING to do with eroticism or satisfying a sexual need. It is purely an expression of my wanting to feel feminine. There's no longer a need to achieve orgasm at the conclusion of a cross dressing session. In the past, if I cross dressed, the moment after orgasm, I shed the bra, panties, and hose as quickly as I could, and wondered what in the world I was thinking of. That was not my female side reacting. It was my male side retaking control and disavowing the existence of my female identity

I do agree with you that when one's TG needs are satisfied through appropriate, honest expression in an atmosphere of freedom and acceptance, the former ways of relieving the anxiety and stress surrounding one's suppressed gender sense are no longer important, and are abandoned. That is clearly where I'm at today.

That, plus the lowering of my T-levels, have resulted in a new sexuality which is both pleasurable, satisfying, and mentally healthy.

Thanks, Sammie, for highlighting that point. It is a critical aspect of the journey of self-discovery that you, I, and many others here are pursuing.

Clara

[Robbin]

Clara,

Very nicely put im starting to see and feel the same feelings since I have been taking pm. Its more like psychiatry for the mind . The sexual feels just get in the way of personal growth of mind and body. pm seems to opens up your mind to a new way of thinking . That helps over flow love into them with out anticipating a sexual release for your own needs.

Robbin

[GoneGirl]

Yes, Robbin, we have succeeded in separating our sexual needs from the needs our inner identity (soul, if you will). Before accepting myself for who I truly am, without fear of condemnation or rejection, my gender and sexuality were inextricably linked. Now, with my hormonal balance adjusted to better satisfy my female gender identity, she can develop in a way which is not dependent on a preconceived notion of what the sexuality between a man and a woman should be. Thus, each is now free to develop in ways that are natural and fulfilling.

Clara

[AnnieBL]

Patti, Sammie and Clara, this concerns your posts 112-114 (I don't want to load thing down by quoting them all)-

While I appreciate the legitimacy of your query, Patti, I find myself fully persuaded by Sammie's and Clara's responses taken in their their own contexts which are of course different from each other and from yours and mine. I'm being brought to the conclusion that my innate gender conditioning left me deficient in both male and female pre-programming. So as a genetic male, I became subject at puberty to the hormonally driven effects and urges of testosterone, but without the behavioral programming to deal with those urges. So masturbation was a necessary and indeed natural release, as was an interest in pornography, except that I do always seem to have been endowed with a powerful feeling that sex is a game for two, and solitary activities provided only physical relief to hormonal urges accompanied by a large measure of guilt. Moreover the sensation of that physical relief was fleeting and on its own fundamentally unsatisfying, leading to a belief that the grass might be greener in that respect on the other side of the sexual divide.. Further, there was always this strong urge to feel what it would be like to be a woman, which I tried largely unsuccessfully to satisfy in various ways.

When I finally was able to make physical love to the love of my life, I had no difficulty in doing so wholeheartedly (although right from the start with the addition of a lot more than just the seed planting function driven by T). To echo a previous post, this for me was the 'splendour in the grass', and it was only when the effect of T began to fade that the interest in porn began to re-emerge, to start with to try to reassure myself that I did still have the urge and then to look at alternatives, accompanied by exploration of possible ways of feminising my body. Masturbation just ceased to be a problem or in the end even a practical possibility. The rest as they say is history. Having verified to the best of my ability that the medical profession has succeeded in pharmaceutically destroying my conventional male function, I have been relieved of making the decisions that many of you have to work through, and I at least now have few regrets, while what remains of our physical relationship is the most important part and has I believe been enriched.

What I am now finding interesting and am wondering how to cope with is that, having achieved some degree of physical feminisation, and now being under the influence of (phyto)estrogen rather than T, Annie may be beginning to emerge. This journey is never dull.

[Samantha Rogers]

Annie, I want to tell you that I do always so look forward to reading your thoughtful, reasoned and sophisticated comments.
I very much appreciate the literate touch of class you bring to our motley crew. And I am so glad that you are among us.
Further, I very much look forward to the full emergence of dear Annie! Thanks for sharing that with us.
Hugs, sweetheart!